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Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
6/25/14 1:52 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

Not sure at what sort of dishonesty you are trying to unearth here, but regardless---- yes, I would rather drive a more visceral car instead of a "better" car. I haven't spent enough time in an Alfa Spider to justify your claims of it being more engaging and fun than a Miata, but if that's the case than yes---- for pure driving fun, I'd prefer an Alfa. For daily use, I'll keep the Miata, as the maintenance and care is so much easier and cheaper. ( just as I'd drive a PDK, or DSG if I had to deal with traffic)

I'd also rather have an older, air-cooled 911, instead of a new one with a "fixed" chassis that doesn't like to swap ends. Mastering the car gives me satisfaction--- more so than being impressed by what a computer can do for me. If I was a techie, I'd probably lust after a GT-R. I'm not, but it's undeniably impressive.

I never insinuated, or condemned anyone for driving an automated manual. If you read my post, you'll see I stated just the opposite. The truth is---- I'd just rather drive a manual. If you don't agree--- good for you, to each his own.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla PowerDork
6/25/14 1:58 p.m.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

dITTO. Not sure what got everyone up in arms over this. You like it great. I don't. Great. You have what you want, I have what I want and everyone is happy, right? So why the crappy attitudes of "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG DAMNIT!"?

Y'all are going full friggin retard on this and EVERYONE knows you don't go full friggin retard.

Duke
Duke UltimaDork
6/25/14 2:25 p.m.

In reply to Bobzilla:

Yes, but do you prefer your manual transmissions in a hatchback, or a coupe?

Bobzilla
Bobzilla PowerDork
6/25/14 2:30 p.m.
Duke wrote: In reply to Bobzilla: Yes, but do you prefer your manual transmissions in a hatchback, or a coupe?

Yes.

EDIT: I prefer them in 4k+ lb wagons.

JacktheRiffer
JacktheRiffer Reader
6/25/14 2:54 p.m.

My DD is a stick and so is my current race car project thing. I drove a PDK equipped cayman at the last track day i went to and have to say it was actually pretty fun. I was able to focus more on the cars traction and my lines on the course. Would i drive one everyday? Probably not. Would i drive one to race? Hell yea.

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/25/14 2:59 p.m.
Bobzilla wrote: So why the crappy attitudes of "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG DAMNIT!"?

Oh the irony of this post coming from you.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla PowerDork
6/25/14 3:00 p.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Bobzilla wrote: So why the crappy attitudes of "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG DAMNIT!"?
Oh the irony of this post coming from you.

Something about kitchen utensils and their absence of color?

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/25/14 3:10 p.m.
Bobzilla wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
Bobzilla wrote: So why the crappy attitudes of "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG DAMNIT!"?
Oh the irony of this post coming from you.
Something about kitchen utensils and their absence of color?

dyintorace
dyintorace UberDork
6/25/14 3:23 p.m.

The actual irony of this thread is that the OP then turned around and bought a manual transmission R8!

racerdave600
racerdave600 Dork
6/25/14 3:29 p.m.

I thought I had stepped back in time and this was the MINI vs. Mini thread of 10 years ago..

To the original post, I am a manual guy too, but I did get to recently drive a PDK, and you know what, I could live with it. I was surprised how good it was. I still prefer a manual, but if that's the future, it's not so bad!

Woody
Woody MegaDork
6/25/14 4:58 p.m.

The original premise was that PDK is the future and, regardless of how you feel about clutch pedals, I think it's pretty clear that it is.

Maroon92
Maroon92 MegaDork
6/25/14 5:38 p.m.

I spent all day yesterday driving Macan Turbos at Willow Springs. PDKs are awesome!

Launch control 4.4 second 0-60 runs are amazing in a 4400 pound mini-truck. Plus, it's completely repeatable. I think I did 10 of them in a row without hurting anything. Fantastic.

racerdave600
racerdave600 Dork
6/25/14 6:43 p.m.

Oh yeah, and I have a sincere unbridled hate for dual mass flywheels. If they can't give me an old fashioned, one piece flywheel, I'd rather have the PDK anyway. Both of my cars have the dual mass, and both rattle. I see no upside to these. They supposedly reduce vibration, but I simply don't see it. I personally think it's a programmed way to send us to PDKs anyway!

Driven5
Driven5 HalfDork
6/25/14 6:55 p.m.

In reply to racerdave600:

Then again, DuMass (pronounced with a 'short u') flywheels might be a necessary evil that allows manufacturers to justify making/selling manual transmission cars though incrementally higher manual transmission sales volume via people who don't actually care that much about the 'classic' manual transmission experience.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 HalfDork
6/25/14 8:11 p.m.
dyintorace wrote: The actual irony of this thread is that the OP then turned around and bought a manual transmission R8!

What?!? No way!

gofastbobby
gofastbobby Reader
6/25/14 10:11 p.m.

OP is correct. The future of performance vehicles is less skilled drivers going faster with the assistance of driving aids like automatics and stability control. IMO, it will just cause more accidents like the enzo in CT today that ate some concrete.

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/25/14 10:58 p.m.
Maroon92 wrote: I spent all day yesterday driving Macan Turbos at Willow Springs. PDKs are awesome! Launch control 4.4 second 0-60 runs are amazing in a 4400 pound mini-truck. Plus, it's completely repeatable. I think I did 10 of them in a row without hurting anything. Fantastic.

Certainly you saw the video of Bill Caswell doing 50 launch control starts in a row in the new 911 Turbo?

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
6/26/14 6:48 a.m.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

Like I posted, I picked your "viceral feel" post more out of randomness and that it was the easiest one on the page.

I just think it's amusing to hear people talk about how great of a feeling it is to drive a manual car, yet many of them (this comes up on Miata.net all the time) drive one of the easiest cars to drive fast of all time. And one with a lot less feedback and real honest discussion than many other cars.

So it's great that I have a manual, but package in a car that is super easy to make me look good kind of thing.

This isn't even the whole thing about control- which is another amusing subject. just the feel and reward in driving.

Nothing against you, personally, Joe- you were there out of conviencence.

Hypocracy in car enthusiests is amusing.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/26/14 7:25 a.m.

Not that anyone asked nor gives a damn, but I think the PDK gap fills more than just the performance niche.

It effectively takes the transmission out of the equation.

Before you had to decide if you wanted traffic/easy driving or open road/focused driving. Most people choose easy driving, now that choice really doesn't have to be made. Do you not get to push a pedal anymore? Yes, but honestly, change gears in a new car and compare it to an old top loader 4 speed, and you will say the new car has no feeling and it might as well be an automatic. You can still wiggle a feedback-less stick to change gears in the PDK, or now you can pull a flappy paddle on the back of the wheel, but you just don't have to push the little left peddle.

In the end, sticks will still be around. There will be niche vehicles that are about the journey and not about the time nor the comfort. Like say a Miata, or a Caterham, or a Morgan 3 wheeler.

The PDK just seems to have narrowed those niche vehicles down a little more.

Besides, keep your bitching up and everything will go to CVTs

Duke
Duke UltimaDork
6/26/14 8:52 a.m.
alfadriver wrote: I just think it's amusing to hear people talk about how great of a feeling it is to drive a manual car, yet many of them (this comes up on Miata.net all the time) drive one of the easiest cars to drive fast of all time. And one with a lot less feedback and real honest discussion than many other cars. Hypocracy in car enthusiests is amusing.

Error 404 Hypocrisy not found.

You've made this irrelevant point before in other versions of this discussion. If people disagree with you on this topic, you force a false black/white position upon them. If I want to shift my own gears and press my own clutch pedal, you think that means I must want to manually control spark advance and fuel mixture and drive a non-synchromesh transmission etc. etc. or else I am a hypocrite. Thanks for the label, but it's meaningless to me because it's based on a false dichotomy that you are asserting.

What you're failing to acknowledge is the distinction between a car that is mechanically engineered to be fun and rewarding to drive, and one that is digitally programmed to deliver perfect performance every time.

It's not that one takes skill and the other doesn't. Both take skill to get the most out of them; just somewhat different skills. It's not that one is better than the other. They each are better at some particular tasks. The real difference comes from what the individual driver finds rewarding.

Just because I find a more analog set of controls to be more rewarding does not mean I must be required to drive a Model T Speedster because it's the most analog vehicle ever created. That's your world view, not mine.

I am most rewarded by using whatever skills I have to manually control the dynamics of the car I'm driving. Note that I said dynamics - I'm talking about controls that directly make the car go, turn, and stop. It is not hypocritical to let the car take care of indirect items like spark and mixture. YES, you're right, technically those things do affect performance and the driving experience. I bow to your superior nit-pickiness on that. But it's not hypocritical to focus my attention on direct stimuli rather than indirect.

I'm impressed by the technology in a clinical, abstract way. I'm not excited by it. Who the berk cares if I can learn how to turn the special key, set the switch to Super Duper Sport mode, hold the brake pedal for the right number of seconds before stepping on the gas, and crack off digitally perfect launches followed by nanosecond upshifts? That's fun a couple times. After that, yawn.

I bet you like F1. Frankly, I couldn't care less about it. Yes, the cars have amazing capability. Yes, the drivers need lightning reactions and inhuman skill to drive them. So what? Pour enough money and programming into it, and you should be able to do anything. That doesn't make it exciting unless you are the kind of person who enjoys that. I'm not.

When I autocross, I turn off ABS and traction control in my car. Yes, I lock the brakes up sometimes. Yes, sometimes I can't get the power down as well as I should. Yes, it probably slows me down. But it's more satisfying to earn whatever time I can on my own, even if it's slower than the car is technologically capable of.

Like what you like, it's no skin off my ass either way. But I'm not automatically a hypocrite or a reactionary just because I don't like the same things other people do.

nderwater
nderwater PowerDork
6/27/14 9:20 a.m.

In reply to Duke:

92dxman
92dxman Dork
6/27/14 12:29 p.m.

Personally, I like driving something with three pedals but have no beef if people want to drive a pdk/dual clutch. I have driven ones that are okay and some are less than desired.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
6/28/14 10:01 a.m.
nderwater wrote: In reply to Duke:

No, your a hamster

wbjones
wbjones UltimaDork
6/28/14 11:51 a.m.
Woody wrote: The original premise was that PDK is the future and, regardless of how you feel about clutch pedals, I think it's pretty clear that it is.

in that you're correct … they cast more, they cost more to service (there are more things to go wrong), and they have to be serviced more often …

by those reasons alone they are the future

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 HalfDork
6/28/14 1:55 p.m.

They really have to be serviced more? How often does Porsche say it needs to be serviced?

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