I wanna build a > $20XX RWD rally car. Help needed.

I've been watching a lot of the old Group B rallies and I have a big itch to build a rally car.  Those screaming motors flinging dirt and dust all over the place.   drool......  I've had other cars, but never something  purpose built and wild like a rally car.  I know RWD cars are not the best, truthfully they are probably the worst, but for me it's about the build and having fun.  I have some ideas on cars, and build plans but I'm looking to pick the hives brain before I plunk down some hard earned cash on a project car.  I have money burning a hole in my pocket for a purchase right now, but I want to make a wise choice. 

What I see the car competing in:

- Hopefully a $20xx challenge.  I'd like to say 2019 or eve 2020, but realistically life might get in the way

- Local RallyX and AutoX

- TN Gambler if I can purchase one cheap enough

What I think the car should have:

- RWD

- small lift

- lots of lights

- manual

Things I don't know:

- LSD?

- Welded rear?

- Turbo?

- motor swap?

- I assume easier to start with a running car?

- roll bar construction? or kit? (never had one of those except in a Jeep)

My skillset concerns:

- time.  I can do more now that my kids are older but time is always a factor.  My kids will help out when they can. 

- welding.  I don't know how, but not sure I will need it.  Avoiding a car with rust would be a bonus. 

- electronics.  Maybe my weak link in car work.  I can do it.  I wired the 3.2 motor into my 911, but it definitly takes me a lot longer than anything else.  Which goes back to that time issue. 

I have some cars I like, but like I said I'm curious what the hive suggests.  

Id think e30 or miata would be the simple answer, but im not a dirt guy. Just what ive seen do well with limited prep/time/money invested.

Are there issues with open top cars?  Or are you talking Miata with a hardtop? 

When you say "rally"....  Do you mean rallycross/road rally/gambler stuff or do you mean potentially stage rally?  My understanding is that the Miata, while great for rallycross, would be at a significant disadvantage in rulebook safety requirement compliance.  Not sure if NASA Rally Sport or SCCA Rally Sprint would be a problem for Miatas, but you might check their rulebooks as well.

If you're not aiming for stage rally, almost anything can work.  I've "built" a whole pile of RWD cars for rallyX, general snow/gravel hoonassery, and a couple for stage rally.  My recommendation as follows:

-Get something that runs.  Don't berkeley with the engine, anything with less than 15lbs/hp will be plenty fun.
-Repair suspension to be in decent shape and have reasonable travel.  All bushings/joints/bearings.  Good damping and proper spring rates are nice to have, but travel and long bumpstops make up for many sins if everything else is in order.
-A welded diff can handle fine if you have proper brake bias and suspension setup.
-If a vehicle has a known problem as a street car, it will probably be 10x worse when you start abusing it.  Address whatever that problem is before you blow it up.

As asked above, stage rally, or just "rally" looking and legal for rallycross and awesome street driving and the like? 

Here's a very vague overview of the RWD stuff I've run offroad.  I can elaborate on any of these if you want.

AW11 MR2
Pro: Good handling, tough suspension, revvy 4age, overbuilt chassis
Con: Mid engine means lots of dirt in the engine bay, they rust fast, small interior, rear weight bias can be tricky

SW20 MR2
Pro: Good handling, tough suspension, overbuilt chassis
Con: Dirt in engine bay, 5sfe is a lousy engine, rear weight bias can be tricky

RA64 Celica GT-S
Pro: Good handling, tough suspension, tons of tire clearance, easiest car in the world to drive sideways, 80s rally cred
Con: Hard to find, rusts fast, 22RE is a bit of a slug

80s Toyota Pickup
Pro: Indestructible
Con: Terrible weight distribution, 22RE slug, rust prone

Foxbody Mustang
Pro: V8 powah, tire clearance, cheap parts, tough diff
Con: Flimsy chassis, garbage suspension geometry

Merkur XR4Ti:
Pro: 80s rally cred, Ford prep manual documents how to make them survive rally, acceptable suspension, interior space
Con: 2.3T sucks, parts can be hard to find

FC RX7:
Pro: Rotaries are tough race engines, tough suspension, good handling
Con: Tight interior space, rust prone

318ti:
Pro: Decent suspension, good weight distribution
Con: Typical E36 disintegrating interior and bushings, somewhat rust prone, low hanging aluminum oil pan

Local rallyX and stuff.  I don't have stage rally near me (I don't think).  Although that would be wicked awesome!

Another thought, although it's something I haven't tried yet- lots of old (60s/70s/80s) Ford/GM stuff has lots of suspension travel, room for big tires, and a common auto trans which you could install a manual shift kit on.  Could be good for Gambler type stuff although not great for actual competition.

Volvo 240

+'s 

Mountains of suspension travel

Dana 30 in the rear, limited slips and crazy short gear ratios available

OE bolt on 16v and turbo bits

JVAB cred and sooper suspenders

-'s

Those damn ceramic fuses

Hipster tax

In rallycross I've run: 

AE86 Corolla - they can be fast, handling is sublime with an LSD, not so much without. Tons of room inside once the seat is low enough. Parts are thin on the ground. Cool factor is astronomical. 

FB RX7 - all the rpm. All of it. Makes an FC look like a roomy SUV by comparison. Suspension leaves a little to be desired and I never got mine dialed, but it was a great teaching tool. These are also coo. 

Miata - Best driver of the three. Books of knowledge. Parts are in piles everywhere. Need a hard top but they're better cars with hardtops anyway. Room is.....not good, but easier to deal with than the FB. Lift to awesomeness is just a call to Paco Motorsports away. Cool factor is kind of blah to me. I mean, a lifted Miata with rally lights is cool, but not as cool as a lifted AE86 with rally lights. I recently bought one for this very reason. Planning a light bar now. 

Of the three the AE86 is the only one I would even begin to contemplate if I was going to think of stage rally. The Miata isn't legal anywhere (unless they changed the rules recently) and unless you need to shop in the young women's section for pants the FB doesn't have enough room for a cage and your head. 

My dark horse entry is an early 80's Mercedes. You will NOT be competitive. They're slow. Even the "fast ones", but they do handle the bumps well, they seem to be tough and the cool factor makes the Corolla look like your mom's minivan. I've had a great time running a turbo diesel version that a friend runs. We had a blast and it was consistently the most photographed car. 

FWIW, if I had to do any of them again, as an all-rounder, I'd do a Celica assuming I could find one.  The loose surface handling was just incredible, and I put 50k HARD miles on mine with only a couple of bent steering arms and blown shocks to show for it.  Plus, you said Group B.

P71s are fun in the dirt, rear wheel drive, easy to cage, and have lots of lightness you can add. In SR it wasn't the slowest car, while it may not be competitive in PR or MR thanks to miata and E30/36, if you could make it light enough it should do decent. 

Bonus, they're a dime a dozen and even hard to get parts are cheap. Except clock springs.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

I’ve always thought an 80s Malibu would be fun. I screwed around my Monte a bit but was afraid of tearing up the bumper cover. 

octavious said:

I know RWD cars are not the best, truthfully they are probably the worst, but for me it's about the build and having fun.

I'm a bid biased, but that's wrong. RWD cars are the best (most fun) for rallycross, and not as slow as you might think when driven well.

SW20 MR2 is the right answer for a budget build. The engine is a turd for most things but the it's torquey (relatively) and the gearing and torque band is perfect for the 20-50mph range that most rallycrosses are. Or if you can't find one within budget that isn't a huge pile of garbage (which is getting harder and harder) then miata with a hardtop will do just fine and might be a little easier to keep from rusting into the ground (is that the first time that's ever been said about a miata?). I got tired of searching for a workable MR2 for a reasonable price and bumped my budget out a little bit and got a 986 Boxster and a hardtop and have no real regrets so far but I don't see that being feasible within challenge budget.

Interesting suggestions so far.  The Merc would be super cool.  Didn't they make a SL coupe of some sort in the late 80s to mid 90s?  

What about these:

Porsche 944?

Mustang? 

Camaro? 

BMW E30 (doesn't someone on here run one as a rally car in DC area?)

Those were the first 4 I thought of simply due to availability, aftermarket support, car model specific knowledgeable forums, and RWD manuals.  

Also the Boxster suggestion is epic but I have seen 1 under the challenge budget and I can't get the guy to respond. 

In reply to octavious :

944- Having looked under one, I wouldn't.  You want simple and tough, these are not the first one and maybe barely the second.  Someone will be along to disagree with me shortly I'm sure.

Mustang- Having done a Foxbody, I'd skip that generation as well as the SN95 unless you want to do a bunch of reinforcing, but the S197 might be good, if a bit heavy.  Looks like decent struts up front and a 3 link in the back, diff and engine are good, they're just a bit heavy.

Camaro- I looked at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gens for this purpose.  They have similar drawbacks to the Fox/SN95 Mustangs but with weaker axles and worse steering on the 2nd/3rd gen car.  I'd do a Mustang before I did one of these.

E30- Proven, decently tough, handles well, good engine options.  Not a bad idea if you like BMWs, and certainly better than the E24 or E28.

octavious said:

Interesting suggestions so far.  The Merc would be super cool.  Didn't they make a SL coupe of some sort in the late 80s to mid 90s?  

 

Yup

Looks like MB campaigned both the 450SLC (hardtop) and the 500SL (roadster)

Nothing valuable to add, just some inspiration.  I'd find something like a Golf or 2.5RS Subaru with a cage already in it and go for it.  

I'm gonna go out on a limb.  NA first gen 300zx.  Forum member aeromoto built one

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to octavious :

944- Having looked under one, I wouldn't.  You want simple and tough, these are not the first one and maybe barely the second.  Someone will be along to disagree with me shortly I'm sure.

 

I took a few runs in one at a rallycross and really enjoyed it. I don't know about the longevity or durability of it, the owner only ran it for 2 or so years before switching to a Boxster. I wouldn't recommend it for stage rally but for occasional rallycross I think it is a good option. 

Just jumped on cl and found 300zx cheap

$700 w spare engine

$1300 running driving

Also beater 2nd gen 300zx are sub 2000$ all over place.

Only issue may be weight...first gen 3050 lbs.  Second gen 3150 lbs.  But room for lightening

Wiscocrashtest said:

octavious said:

Interesting suggestions so far.  The Merc would be super cool.  Didn't they make a SL coupe of some sort in the late 80s to mid 90s?  

 

Yup

 

Looks like MB campaigned both the 450SLC (hardtop) and the 500SL (roadster)

Cool...but sl and slc mercs are over 4000 lbs.  Plus manuals hard to find.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

I’d be fine with an automatic behind a V8 as long as there was a good cooler. 

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