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AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/28/21 7:52 p.m.

I prefer to ride on trails on my bikes for this reason.  I really like an old railroad converted to a multi use trail which is why I'm a member of rails to trails. 

I don't ride on roads in Dallas generally because of bad cyclists and bad drivers.  I actually rolled down my window and told a pack of local bikers to stop running stop signs one day because it makes all cyclists look like morons and ruins the road for everyone.  There is plenty of bad behavior to go around.

Also are we really still arguing that people today aren't dumber than previous generations?  A lack of concern and empathy for your fellow man shows a deterioration of mental capacity if you ask me.  I will just sit back and wait a few more months and you'll have another story showing how some stupid person carelessly and possibly on purpose harmed a bunch of their fellow human beings. 

You want to see stupid on a massive destructive scale?  Check out Australia right now.  If the leaders and police had any sense of decency, empathy or humanity things would be handled way differently there. 

 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 8:05 p.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

So keeping in mind that my work deals with what does the law/contract/regulation say. 

First no one deserves to be hit, I don't think anyone is saying that, or at least I'm not.

What started this debate/discussion was the issue of the driver not being charged.

To that end the driver may not have violated a single law and as such wasn't be charged. Being a douche or a dirt bag  is not illegal.

If perchance the cyclists were in violation of some traffic law then it further solidifies the authorities reason for not charging the driver.

Also do not take what I'm saying as my supporting the driver in any way. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
9/28/21 8:11 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

So keeping in mind that my work deals with what does the law/contract/regulation say. 

First no one deserves to be hit, I don't think anyone is saying that, or at least I'm not.

What started this debate/discussion was the issue of the driver not being charged.

To that end the driver may not have violated a single law and as such wasn't be charged. Being a douche or a dirt bag  is not illegal.

If perchance the cyclists were in violation of some traffic law then it further solidifies the authorities reason for not charging the driver.

Also do not take what I'm saying as my supporting the driver in any way. 

Thank you for clarifying that. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 8:19 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I prefer to ride on trails on my bikes for this reason.  I really like an old railroad converted to a multi use trail which is why I'm a member of rails to trails. 

Also are we really still arguing that people today aren't dumber than previous generations?  A lack of concern and empathy for your fellow man shows a deterioration of mental capacity if you ask me.  I will just sit back and wait a few more months and you'll have another story showing how some stupid person carelessly and possibly on purpose harmed a bunch of their fellow human beings. 

 

I won't ride on roads anymore and like you stick to trail systems.

As for being dumber than previous generations; they aren't. Contemplate that during World War I people actually stoned Dachshunds to death becuase they were "German" dogs.

I could site examples from almost every generation for the past 500 years of humans being inhuman.

Pepe
Pepe New Reader
9/28/21 8:28 p.m.

Flynn effect.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/28/21 9:59 p.m.

I am sorry a mistake isn't running over 6 cyclist after rolling coal at them. I swear it is basically berkeleying legal to murder cyclist. Just say you didn't berkeley see them there and run them over. Just seeing that truck I remember those douche bags from high school rolling around in their penis compensator 5000s bought with daddy's money. But of course nothing will ever happen to that piece of E36 M3 cause cyclists are basically second class citizens on the road. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/28/21 10:34 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

The level of inattentive driving is such that I no longer ride a street bike either. Short of a driver being inebriated the laws are such that not much can be done. Read you can be an incompetent or careless driver and there isn't much that can be done.

My Grandmother got killed crossing the street; it was raining heavily and she left it to late. The guy who hit her pretty much acted like an ass.

With that said I can't villify the guy, while he could have been more careful given the conditions the reality is my grandmother was  J-walking.

There are many are as many traffic fatalities as there are murders. In general people don't think anything bad can happen in traffic and so they act accordingly. 

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/28/21 11:04 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

The level of inattentive driving is such that I no longer ride a street bike either. Short of a driver being inebriated the laws are such that not much can be done.

Heck I feel it could be argued that inebriated drivers are more attentive than many of the drivers on the roads today. 

 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/29/21 7:19 a.m.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:

Severe injury doesn't appear to be in question.  Nor is the intention of the driver to harass the people he hit, most especially if it's true that he made multiple passes.
 

Yet we're going to get into a dispute over whether the victims deserved to be hit by a truck based on unrelated personal experience with people on bikes. 
 

If that's your perspective on this, go ahead. Just don't expect me to agree with you. 
 

 

I think your facts are a little skewed. The truck didn't make multiple passes of a group of cyclists. No one, including the eyewitness, has stated that he did. He passed or attempted to pass 2 different groups of cyclists. One group successfully, the other resulting in the 6 cyclists being hit. Did he slow down behind the cyclists? Probably, I do because cyclists are frequently unpredictable. Did he accelerate past them, undoubtedly? I do, to make the pass as quickly as possible. Did he do that to intentionally roll coal at them, at a guess, I would say yes but I don't know. Did he swerve into them? I don't know. Did the cyclist swerve in front of the truck? No clue. And that's the entire point of my posts in here. We don't know. I'm willing to let the PD do their investigation before throwing out accusations. 

I am 100% certain that no one in this thread has said anyone deserved to be hit. If you think that is true, you should go back are reread the last few pages. The predominant statement has been that the truck driver should go to jail. How you can reach that decision with basically zero facts is beyond me but many of you have done it.

It is never a good idea to let your assumptions color your thoughts. Being objective is important. Justice is important. It's worth taking the time to do it right. Especially when your emotions scream for punishment first. 

And with that, I'm out. There is no reason to continue the discussion with people that have already made up their minds. 

 

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 7:29 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Do you honestly believe 6 cyclist had a suicide pact on a straight piece of road to turn in front of a massive pickup?

chandler
chandler UltimaDork
9/29/21 8:00 a.m.

I'm personally on Toymans side here; but the story says that it was a 75 mile ride and he had toyed with them before. We need a LOT more facts before we play judge.

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
9/29/21 8:14 a.m.
93EXCivic said:

In reply to Toyman01 + Sized and :

Do you honestly believe 6 cyclist had a suicide pact on a straight piece of road to turn in front of a massive pickup?

Packs of cyclists are even worse. I have seen groups completely blow stop signs out on the back roads even through oncoming traffic. I put nothing past them, they are the worst. The worst. We still have horses, buggies, little carts with ponies, children on scooters, runners, farm implements on the streets. 

Toyman01 + Sized and
Toyman01 + Sized and MegaDork
9/29/21 8:16 a.m.

One more statement to clear up some obvious confusion. 

If the driver of the truck is guilty, he absolutely deserves to face whatever punishment the courts decide. 

He also absolutely deserves due process and the presumption of innocence until that guilt is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

Without these, we don't have the rule of law. 

Let's give the authorities a chance to do their job before breaking out the pitchforks and torches. 

 

jharry3
jharry3 Dork
9/29/21 8:34 a.m.

That area west of Houston gets really rural.  The natives seriously hate cyclists and think its funny to scare them. The cyclists are city people going for a ride on country roads with no shoulder at all.  They have to ride in the road.  

I personally have had conversations at work with some of these yahoos.   I would tell them because of people like them I only ride my bike on bike trails. 

On the flip side: The Houston bike riders on bike trails are also horrible.  They weave in and out of trail walkers and have near head on collisions with oncoming cyclists.  I have had to go off the asphalt path more then once.   

Basically riding a bicycle in the greater Houston area is more risky than in a bike friendly city.

Tyler H (Forum Supporter)
Tyler H (Forum Supporter) UberDork
9/29/21 8:39 a.m.
outasite said:

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

After riding on highways for 15 years I switched to bike trails in the early 2000s. Distracted drivers escalated with accelerated cell phone usage.

Agreed, I mountain bike occasionally or stick to greenways.  I've had a couple of close calls, like cresting a blind hill and coming up on a cyclist when there was a car coming the other way -- nowhere to pass, huge speed differential.  Luckily I wasn't changing a radio station or something at the time.  Hit the ABS and of course I get the fist shake when I can safely pass them.  I have to think this happens to them every time they ride?

Regarding the Jr Coal Roller -- indicted or not, there will be enough civil lawsuits to extract all of the cash, pain, and suffering there is to be had.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
9/29/21 8:43 a.m.

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf HalfDork
9/29/21 8:47 a.m.
docwyte said:

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

YES THIS.

wae
wae UberDork
9/29/21 9:13 a.m.
L5wolvesf said:
docwyte said:

Not sure it matters if the cyclists were in the middle of the road or not.  They get treated like motor vehicles and have the right to the lane.  If any other motor vehicle hits them, they need to be charged.  So sorry, this kid needs to have the book thrown at him.

In response to the DUI laws charging people, those are way too lax too.  People are allowed multiple DUI's without anything happening and people haven't been charged appropriately after killing someone while driving DUI.

YES THIS.

NO NOT THAT.

Every collision between vehicles is not a criminal act for which someone should be charged.  Even when a big bad truck hits a peaceful bicycle.  In this situation, charges may be appropriate and they may not.  Anyone who is privy to the results of the investigation can have an informed opinion on the matter.  But the rest of us do not know what happened and if this was a wanton act, a case of negligence, or an accident.

If this was a wanton act - throw the book.  If it was negligent behavior, file appropriate charges and hope that lessons are learned and a life is salvaged.  If it was an accident, then let insurance do its job, persue civil action to recover damages as appropriate, and hope that lessons are learned.

I'm so sick of all this outrage porn and armchair legal wrangling from people that don't know what the facts are.  We have a process to investigate, indict, try, and then sentence those that may have broken the law.  Let's follow those steps.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 9:44 a.m.

I am just sick and tried of this E36 M3. Too often the driver gets nothing done to them or just a slap on the wrist. Like a case not long ago where a cyclist was hit and killed on his bike and the motorists was only charged with failure to leave enough room to pass. I am sorry but that isnt good enough. He berkeleying killed a man and it was clearly the drivers fault. 

 

Cars keep getting faster, heavier and easier to drive at speed. Urban planning keeps giving complete priotity to moving these cars at speed even in places where that makes no sense. There are more and more distractions for drivers and there is no punishment when they do screw up. So we have spiking cyclist and pedestrian deaths. It is complete and utter bullE36 M3.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 10:49 a.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

Sadly it isn't this cut and dry.  

DUI accounts for 30% of fatalities, distracted driving while officially around 14-15% is believed to be more like 25% of fatalities.  So that leaves half of fatal accidents that are simply accidents. 

Next, I can only speak for Vegas but here 70% of pedestrian deaths involve people J-walking; usually at night.

As for cyclists; while it's been a couple of years since I saw the statistics but it was nearly a 50/50 split of the fault between the cyclists and the drivers.  

The one thing we haven't discussed is this was a teen driver; for all we know this crash may have been in large part due to his inexperience as a driver. Teenagers have higher insurance rates for a reason. 

We won't really know what happened for several weeks.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 11:03 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I mean some of it is. Speed kills simple as. Your survival rates for pedestrains and cyclists go down massively as the speed of vehicles increases. Look at some of the urban planning. You have 45 mph streets going between rows of shopping centers. You can't say it isn't a recipe for problems. Also it is just easier to drive a modern car at speed then an older one for the average driver and the roads are designed to be as easy to maintain speed on as possible. So we also have speeding in areas where the speed limit is already too high.

Pedestrain deaths have risen 46% over the last decade. https://www.ghsa.org/resources/news-releases/GHSA/Ped-Spotlight-Addendum21

Cyclist deaths among adult men have tripled since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists

Something is making it worst and IMO it isn't the cyclist or pedestrains.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
9/29/21 11:08 a.m.
93EXCivic said:

I am just sick and tried of this E36 M3. Too often the driver gets nothing done to them or just a slap on the wrist. Like a case not long ago where a cyclist was hit and killed on his bike and the motorists was only charged with failure to leave enough room to pass. I am sorry but that isnt good enough. He berkeleying killed a man and it was clearly the drivers fault. 

"clearly" how?  did you witness it yourself?  Was there video footage?  Or are you just saying this based on what you saw on the TV news and read on Facebook?

Stop believing everything you read on the Internet or hear on TV.  Ask yourself what is more likely:  that a group of prosecutors with no previous connection to this driver decided to let him off with murder for no reason at all, or that the news reporters exaggerated facts, presented a partial truth, or otherwise presented a slanted story in order to garner more outrage, more views, more clicks, and ultimately more advertising?

As an exercise, the next time you find a news story dealing with a topic on which you have a substantial amount of personal knowledge, read that article carefully and count how many mistakes, omissions, or other problems it has.  Odds are there will be at least 2 or 3 per paragraph, many of them minor, but some of them really significant.  Now assume that EVERY news article you encounter has that same distribution of errors.

 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
9/29/21 11:39 a.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Clearly his fault cause the driver was cited for failing to leave room to pass.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
9/29/21 12:54 p.m.
93EXCivic said:

Pedestrain deaths have risen 46% over the last decade. https://www.ghsa.org/resources/news-releases/GHSA/Ped-Spotlight-Addendum21

Cyclist deaths among adult men have tripled since 1975. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists

Something is making it worst and IMO it isn't the cyclist or pedestrains.

Let's think about that for a minute;

Pedestrian deaths are up but as mentioned in my area the pedestrians themselves are at fault 70% of the time.  Cycling deaths for adult men have tripled and Cyclists are at fault near 50% of the time. 

So the both pedestrians and cyclists are both contributing to the rise every bit as much as motorists.

Near me there is a 6 lane roadway that they are cutting down to from 45 to 35 mph partially in an effort to cut down on pedestrian deaths. I can tell you right now it won't have the success officials are expecting ; the main issue is people get off the bus and step out into traffic 100ft from the crosswalk. They are either too lazy or in to much of a hurry; either way they don't perceive it as risky behavior. Rather than ticket the J-walkers (70% of the problem) they go after motorists (30% of the problem) because they know the J-walkers probably can't afford or won't pay the ticket.

As cycling became more popular I've noticed a mindset of some cyclists going from riding defensively to "we have a right to the road as well", which they do but riding three abreast may not be legal and for good reason. One of our scenic byways had a cycle path but cyclists didn't want to use the path because the complained about small rocks giving them flats..........so instead they choose to ride on a busy scenic byway full of inattentive motorists.

Human behavior is complex so it's never a simple issue of one thing fixing it.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
9/29/21 1:54 p.m.

Right. 

Use of electronic devices has gone up exponentially in the last ten years.

How many people have stepped in front of you while looking at their screens or having earbuds in?

I'm not surprised in the least that stupid, inattentive people are dying more often.

I'm not saying it's the only cause but I'm dead certain that it's a big contributing factor.

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