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rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
9/5/18 11:19 a.m.

I don't remember this being discussed here, yet, but an Indy race at COTA makes me very happy.  I was getting concerned with all the "other" events COTA seems to have and am glad they're bringing more and more racing to the track. 

Indy at COTA

 

-Rob

Spoolpigeon
Spoolpigeon PowerDork
9/5/18 11:58 a.m.

I think it’s awesome minus the part about COTA making a course change so no one can compare IndyCar to F1. Why would it be bad to compare lap times? It’s not like IC and F1 will be running head to head, so it doesn’t matter which one is running faster lap times. 

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler PowerDork
9/5/18 12:00 p.m.
Spoolpigeon said:

I think it’s awesome minus the part about COTA making a course change so no one can compare IndyCar to F1. Why would it be bad to compare lap times? It’s not like IC and F1 will be running head to head, so it doesn’t matter which one is running faster lap times. 

That's stupid. Who cares? Of course F1 cars are going to be faster.

But anyhow, yes, very happy to see this happen.

rob_lewis
rob_lewis UltraDork
9/5/18 1:09 p.m.
Tom_Spangler said:
Spoolpigeon said:

I think it’s awesome minus the part about COTA making a course change so no one can compare IndyCar to F1. Why would it be bad to compare lap times? It’s not like IC and F1 will be running head to head, so it doesn’t matter which one is running faster lap times. 

That's stupid. Who cares? Of course F1 cars are going to be faster.

But anyhow, yes, very happy to see this happen.

Looks like they're thinking about it, but it's not official.  And I don't know that F1 would be faster.  I could totally see IndyCar opening up the rules for "COTA specific" packages to make them just a smidgen faster...  :)

-Rob

codrus
codrus UltraDork
9/5/18 1:18 p.m.
rob_lewis said:
Tom_Spangler said:
Spoolpigeon said:

I think it’s awesome minus the part about COTA making a course change so no one can compare IndyCar to F1. Why would it be bad to compare lap times? It’s not like IC and F1 will be running head to head, so it doesn’t matter which one is running faster lap times. 

That's stupid. Who cares? Of course F1 cars are going to be faster.

But anyhow, yes, very happy to see this happen.

Looks like they're thinking about it, but it's not official.  And I don't know that F1 would be faster.  I could totally see IndyCar opening up the rules for "COTA specific" packages to make them just a smidgen faster...  :)

-Rob

Nah the F1 cars will be faster, because they're purpose-designed for this kind of track.  Indycar design goals are split between road courses and super speedways like Indy, so they have compromises the F1 cars don't.  Of course, the opposite is true if you were to compare them at Indy (the 2.5 mile oval, not the infield course)

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
9/5/18 1:33 p.m.

Probably something in the contract with F1 prevents any kind of comparison. F1 would not want to be shown up by indy car.  Marketing and bragging rights and all that.

 

 

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
9/5/18 1:41 p.m.

Good deal. I've watched a few non-oval Indy car races this season on TV and they have been interesting. I'm not interested in watching them do oval races at all, that just doesn't do anything for me.

I'd like it if they ran in the F1 version of the track, just so the lap times could be compared. Wonder what they will come up with - sounds like the track changes are unknown at this point.

frenchyd
frenchyd SuperDork
9/5/18 1:43 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

It would be fun to compare F1 with Indy and NASCAR 

Not just lap times but attendance.  Would the much bigger engines of NASCAR be able to approach the small engines of F1?  

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
9/5/18 1:48 p.m.
dean1484 said:

Probably something in the contract with F1 prevents any kind of comparison. F1 would not want to be shown up by indy car.  Marketing and bragging rights and all that.

 

 

IndyCar (Well, ChampCar) was at one time becoming a serious competitor to F1 when they were running in Australia and looking at expanding into Europe, etc.  It really caused Bernie concern, so I could see why they may not want to have any direct comparisons between the two series.

sergio
sergio Reader
9/5/18 2:16 p.m.

Will be fun to watch INDYCARs at COTA. At least they sound like race cars. Not like the F1 cars I saw last year there. 

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
9/5/18 3:17 p.m.

I'm stoked about this.  I was starting to think about going back to Austin to catch the F1 race again before our friends move away (Love Austin, hate Texas) but now I may think about going for the Indy car race instead. 

It doesn't surprise me that they are going to run a different configuration than F1.  First, back in the 90's and 00's there certainly was a rule in all F1 contracts with circuits preventing them from running any other top line open wheel series that was aimed at Indy car. But those contractual clauses went away as Indy car racing did it's ever loving best to kill open wheel racing as a spectator sport in this country (Thanks Tony George)  By the time of reunification, open wheel racing was on life support and America was watching NASCAR so it didn't matter.  I suspect that if Bernie was still at the helm those clauses would be coming right back and soon as Indy car is on a massive upswing and it has way better racing than F1 does these days.

Having said that I guarantee that (even if not in writing) Indy car doesn't want a direct comparison with F1, it would be an embarrassment in the eyes of those who only judge a series by the stats.  Truth is, those who watch both know that while this has actually been a great year for F1 with the fastest car not leading the championship due to numerous mistakes by the team and driver, and amazing racing in the mid field, it's not a patch on the racing Indy car has.  And for those who only watch the road and street courses (I used to be short sighted like that too) the racing on the ovals has been really good.  Do yourselves a favor and go to YouTube and at least watch the 30 min highlights of the Gateway park race.  Best race I've seen in years regardless of series.

Indy Car

1,600lb's, approx 750 hp.  That's 2.1 lb's/hp.  Sound pretty good.

 

Now let's look at F1.

691kg - 1,523lb's.  Power, conservatively is 850hp from the engine plus 160hp electric, that's over 1,000hp, but let's call it  round 1,000.  That's a power to weight ratio of 1.5 lb's/hp.  Way way way better than Indy car. 

That's only one relatively small part of it.  Now Indy car has back to a standardized aero kit, the aero competition has gone.  The cars are faster in a straight line (less drag), slower in the corners and more fun to watch.  F1 on the other hand has insane aero, that while making blindingly fast cars that are a marvel to geek out over, don't produce the racing that Indy cars do.  I would bet around COTA on the same track on the same day an Indy car would be approx. 8-10 seconds a lap slower than an F1 car.  That's based on looking at some time delta's between F1 and F2 on the same weekend, then allowing for Indy cars to be a bit faster than than the F2 cars.   When your grid is covered by only 2-3 seconds max fastest to slowest an 8-10 second delta in lap time to your 'nearest competitor' would be a PR disaster.

Please note, even though I may sound negative I'm a massive Indy car fan and think the racing is better than F1 these days.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
9/5/18 3:24 p.m.

If Indycar puts on a better show with multiple passes for the lead as well as further back in the field, no one will care about differences in lap times.  Also remember any difference in speed can be explained easily by looking at the respective seasonal budgets for both series.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
9/5/18 3:32 p.m.

I wonder if it is Indy Car that is wanting the change in the track?  Maybe they don't want to be compared to F1?  F1 on the other hand could want it and be able to use it to cement there marketing that they are the  #1 open wheel series in the world.  Indy car may not want to give that to them.  

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
9/5/18 3:35 p.m.

I think "real racing fans" don't really care.  They just want good racing and appreciate both series for what they are.  I really don't have a favorite.  I geek out over both. I really do think there is room for both series at the moment and the "friendly competition" between them is actually helping both.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler PowerDork
9/5/18 3:41 p.m.
dean1484 said:

I wonder if it is Indy Car that is wanting the change in the track?  Maybe they don't want to be compared to F1?  F1 on the other hand could want it and be able to use it to cement there marketing that they are the  #1 open wheel series in the world.  Indy car may not want to give that to them.  

Does F1 even need to make that claim? I would think it's just sort of known by everyone that F1 is the pinnacle. And I say that as someone who enjoys Indycar more.

codrus
codrus UltraDork
9/5/18 3:41 p.m.

F1 and Champ Car both ran the same circuit at Montreal back in the day.  F1 was noticably quicker.

It'll be interesting to see what IndyCar does at Laguna Seca next year and whether or not they break Mark Gene's unofficial 1:05 in an F2003 :)

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
9/5/18 3:41 p.m.

There is a whole group of people that would latch on to the stat that a F1 car is faster then an indy car.  They know nothing about actual racing/sport but they want to be associated with whom ever is statistically the better sport.

Kind of like all the "pink hats" we had back when the Red Sox won there first world series in 80 something years.  There was huge group of people that were there to be seen at the event but had no real clue what the event (in this case a baseball game) was actually about.  They did interviews on the local sports talk station and it was hilarious to here the answers they got to the most basic questions.  Like how many outs are there in an inning or how many innings in a game.  

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
9/5/18 3:49 p.m.

To get an idea of the current IndyCar racing, check out the race from Portland this last weekend:

 

 

The winner may surprise you based on past results.

frenchyd
frenchyd SuperDork
9/6/18 3:46 a.m.
T.J. said:

Good deal. I've watched a few non-oval Indy car races this season on TV and they have been interesting. I'm not interested in watching them do oval races at all, that just doesn't do anything for me.

I'd like it if they ran in the F1 version of the track, just so the lap times could be compared. Wonder what they will come up with - sounds like the track changes are unknown at this point.

I’m a road racer through and through. However I can appreciate the exactness of set a car up for oval racing too.  Tiny fractions of a second can make a significant difference  in finishing positions, along with the ability to adjust to changing conditions. 

Its difficult to judge a driver on an oval because so much is dependent on the set-up.  

The much broader strokes of road racing make it easier to judge, in the end though talent will tell.  Good drivers know that there are horses for courses.   The car may lose time in a tight corner compared to the competition but gain it back in higher speed corners or on switchbacks with their sudden shifts from left right left.  Etc. great drivers know how to maximize their advantages and minimize their disadvantages.  Trading a slower exit speed for a positioning to overtake on entry to the following corner etc. 

Oval  tracks are more like chess. Winning is about planning several or many moves ahead.  While road racing is closer to boxing. Punch, counter punch.  

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
9/6/18 6:30 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Seriously, go and watch the Gateway park race from a couple of weeks ago.  It may be a short oval, but it almost drives like a two corner road race track.  IT was an amazing race.  Really, you owe it to yourself.

I totally get the 'I'm a road racer' thing.  Having been born and grown up the other side of the pond there was a (not so) healthy disdain for oval racing and American style racing in general.  A large dose of 'we do it better'.  But having been here for the best part of 25 years and really got back into Indy car racing since they went to the DW12 I've started watching more and more ovals.  Oval racing has a completely different flow to road racing.  It just take time to start to get the nuances.  IT"s a very different style of racing.  Note I said different, not better or worse, just different.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
9/6/18 6:34 a.m.

P.S. In case any one missed it, Alonso tested an Indy car on a road course for the first time last night.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/24592675/fernando-alonso-completes-indycar-test

https://www.indycar.com/News/2018/09/09-05-Alonso-Barber-test

Fernando Alonso

 

frenchyd
frenchyd SuperDork
9/6/18 6:41 a.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

I do watch and sometimes enjoy oval racing.  Like any motor sports it helps when you can identify with and root for a particular driver or team. 

Its harder for the less than serious gear head because they can’t possibly understand the nuances and variables involved so they can’t appreciate the talent of a driver keeping himself in the hunt by pure skill and aggression.  Knowing when to push and when to save his car.  

On the other hand on almost all road courses spectators only briefly see the cars at one point.  They are forced to either guess events  or just wait until the cars come by again. 

 

Dave M
Dave M New Reader
9/6/18 8:11 a.m.
codrus said:

F1 and Champ Car both ran the same circuit at Montreal back in the day.  F1 was noticably quicker.

It'll be interesting to see what IndyCar does at Laguna Seca next year and whether or not they break Mark Gene's unofficial 1:05 in an F2003 :)

 

Maybe on that circuit, post-split, but back in the pre-split 1990s heyday, wasn't CART more like the bigger, heavier, more powerful, higher-speed cousin of F1? Ground effects, turbo methanol engines making 1000 HP...Paul Tracy hitting 256 mph at Michigan. 

Those days are long gone! The racing in Indycar is way more competitive than F1, but the tech gap between the two series is so huge that the F1 cars look like spaceships in comparison to the IndyCars. 

I'm still sour over the split. :(

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
9/6/18 8:17 a.m.
Dave M said:

I'm still sour over the split. :(

As are many of us.  Right before the split you had Mansell and Piquet coming over to what was essentially an equal series to F1.  Senna tested an Indy car and a few years prior Ferrari and Lotus both built Indycars with a look to coming and playing overe here (*).  Tony George all but killed the series.

(*) To be fair the Lotus and Ferrari were as much as anything (very expensive) sticks to force the FIA and FOTA into giving their points of view more weight, but the fact it worked showed the strength Indy car had at the time.

frenchyd
frenchyd SuperDork
9/6/18 2:10 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Not the first time Indy car and F1 danced with each other.  

Ferrari  was set to run Indy about 1955  Cooper took a shot in 1959. Lotus in 1963,  etc. 

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