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STM317
STM317 UberDork
2/15/22 5:35 a.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Now I like trucks and SUVs as much as the next guy, but for a pure driving experience I still want a car. It's a damn shame that the Domestics have given up like they have. 

I don't think they've given up on uniquely American, fun to drive cars at all:

Refreshing or Revolting: Shelby GT500 Vs. Camaro ZL1 Vs. Challenger Hellcat  Redeye

With 2022 Corvette Details Announced, the C8 Corvette Z06 Will Likely Debut  as a 2023 Model - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle

A Mustang, or Hellcat, or Corvette is out there flying the American Performance flag better than any rental spec Focus or Dart ever could. To me, it seems like they said "Screw these boring econoboxes. If we're going to bother with cars, we're only going to focus on undeniably American drivers cars".

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/15/22 7:08 a.m.
frenchyd said:
 

Need to?   Will you at least admit some people do need pickups. And the list of those that actually do need trucks is really pretty long and contains a very lot of people.  
  If you'll admit that I'll agree that some trucks are bought by people who really don't need a truck but just want one.   
 I'll also admit that some people shouldn't own a car too.  Further that even some of us have too many cars. 

Who cares?  All that matters to me is that people buy new vehicles, whether they need it or not.

The debate over what kind of vehicle people needs is a waste of time.  Just like the debate over what kind of home people need, or what kind of phone, TV, dish washer, etc- need.  We have freedom of choice in buying the products we get.

You are wasting your time trying to argue "need."

There's a 100% chance that you don't need a jaguar.  So just stop now.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
2/15/22 7:12 a.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

 

Now I like trucks and SUVs as much as the next guy, but for a pure driving experience I still want a car. It's a damn shame that the Domestics have given up like they have. 

I don't like it either.  But at some point, this board has to recognize that there's not a whole lot of money to be made selling cars to it.  Cars don't make as much money, and people buy SUV/CUV/and trucks.  

If we REALLY wanted to save cars and sports cars, we should have been buying new ones as often as possible.  People who buy new vehicles drive the direction of the market.

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
2/15/22 7:27 a.m.

When it comes to vehicle needs, we're the worst group of people to listen to lmao

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
2/15/22 8:18 a.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Amen!!   We are impossibly cheap ( a race car for $2000?).  Yet in love with the newest wiz bang technology.  But we want to put it on old cheap cars ( and trucks)  

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter)
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) Reader
2/15/22 9:25 a.m.

Interesting way the direction of the thread has been going. While most people don't need crossovers, SUVs, or pickups, I can also admit that a lot of the cars we drive aren't exactly "needed" either. Plenty of people drive sports cars that remain garage queens, don't get autocrossed or tracked, or simply just drive on highways following the speed limits. That would basically mean that most of us sports/sporty car drivers would be better off with a Mitsubishi Mirage/Chevy Spark.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms HalfDork
2/15/22 9:48 a.m.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Interesting way the direction of the thread has been going. While most people don't need crossovers, SUVs, or pickups, I can also admit that a lot of the cars we drive aren't exactly "needed" either. Plenty of people drive sports cars that remain garage queens, don't get autocrossed or tracked, or simply just drive on highways following the speed limits. That would basically mean that most of us sports/sporty car drivers would be better off with a Mitsubishi Mirage/Chevy Spark.

I have talked about turning a Mirage into a track car. For $15k you get exactly what you need and a manual transmission!

Add in the appropriate go fast parts and it would be a riot with momentum as the only way to do things.

bmw88rider
bmw88rider UltraDork
2/15/22 10:15 a.m.

In reply to kevinatfms :

Too bad they never brought over the Colt Ralliart. That little thing was a blast. one of the early 1.5T hot hatches. I drove one in Singapore and was trying to figure out how to smuggle one home. 

 

As for Ford....They will be just fine. They are better positioned than any of the US brands. Name another brand with significant wait lists on not 1 but 5 of their models. The Bronco, Mach E, Maverick, F150 Lightning and GT500

 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
2/15/22 10:21 a.m.

In reply to bmw88rider :

I have never considered a wait list to be a good thing. Shows poor planning and execution. If it is all just a fake marketing ploy, then carry on, its about what I expect of corporate world today.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter)
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) Reader
2/15/22 10:24 a.m.
kevinatfms said:
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Interesting way the direction of the thread has been going. While most people don't need crossovers, SUVs, or pickups, I can also admit that a lot of the cars we drive aren't exactly "needed" either. Plenty of people drive sports cars that remain garage queens, don't get autocrossed or tracked, or simply just drive on highways following the speed limits. That would basically mean that most of us sports/sporty car drivers would be better off with a Mitsubishi Mirage/Chevy Spark.

I have talked about turning a Mirage into a track car. For $15k you get exactly what you need and a manual transmission!

Add in the appropriate go fast parts and it would be a riot with momentum as the only way to do things.

Honestly, I'm sure these basic cars can be a hoot! The mirageforums actually has someone that makes a "rear sway bar" (doesn't seem to be a traditional one?) and I'm sure you can just buy cheapo coilovers (Tein Basics for like 500-600$), gut the car and slap on some 200TW tires and have a race series!

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
2/15/22 10:26 a.m.
STM317 said:
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

Now I like trucks and SUVs as much as the next guy, but for a pure driving experience I still want a car. It's a damn shame that the Domestics have given up like they have. 

I don't think they've given up on uniquely American, fun to drive cars at all:

Refreshing or Revolting: Shelby GT500 Vs. Camaro ZL1 Vs. Challenger Hellcat  Redeye

With 2022 Corvette Details Announced, the C8 Corvette Z06 Will Likely Debut  as a 2023 Model - Corvette: Sales, News & Lifestyle

A Mustang, or Hellcat, or Corvette is out there flying the American Performance flag better than any rental spec Focus or Dart ever could. To me, it seems like they said "Screw these boring econoboxes. If we're going to bother with cars, we're only going to focus on undeniably American drivers cars".

  I think the main objection is lack of Hot Hatchback's with manual transmissions. 
 That and Mazda Miata as the only smallish sports car. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
2/15/22 11:14 a.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to bmw88rider :

I have never considered a wait list to be a good thing. Shows poor planning and execution. If it is all just a fake marketing ploy, then carry on, its about what I expect of corporate world today.

You do know there are major supply chain issues right now, don't you?

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/15/22 2:19 p.m.

I owe nothing to Ford having worked at (agency and subsidiaries) or for them for  25 years before being downsized with nothing to show.  But I wish them no ill will and do believe they will be fine.  Their current line up matches what the public wants very well.  And as for an intro vehicle, that is exactly what the Maverick is, and was designed to be.  I used to run the internal showroom at Ford where we did internal and external presentations, shows, dealer forums etc.  When it was announced that ford was exiting most cars in North America, the dealers were not happy as they need a cheap (circa $20K in five years ago money) product to get people into the showroom.  Brand loyalty is still a huge factor and the dealers have to have something in the line up to get young people through the door.  I heard lots of stories from dealers about people who came into showrooms 20-30 years ago and bought a base stripper Festiva or Escort who now come back every 2-3 years for a new $100k Superduty.  All their trucks are doing well, their SUV's are competent to great in class.  They are selling every Mach E they can turn out.  Mustang is doing very well and the Bronco/Bronco Sport are still turning heads on the street 12-18 months on.  If the market makes a sudden change back to cars and small hatchbacks, there is still the Ka, Focus, Puma, Mondeo ready to bring back over with engines that are already sold in this country and everything else proven out.  If America falls back in love with people movers there's the S-Max and Galaxy ready as well.  They look to be hedged nicely on future products.

Now, the one thing that I think is missing from the current Ford line up is that for their more pedestrian offerings, they are not as fun to drive as they used to be.  No, no one expects an Escape or Edge to perform like a sports car (but you can get an ST Edge with real props if you want), but driving recent basic products (Edge and Escape in particular) they do feel more dumbed down than they used to, especially in steering response.  I have a friend that had an older edge, and has just inherited a new one (about a year old) due to a parent passing.  Their opinion, and mine having driven it, is it's definitely lost something in the modern version.  It's difficult to pin point, but even base, non performance Ford's just felt fun and lively, that is now missing.  Now, just as the malaise era didn't kill off the US auto industry over night, it was more like 20 years of minor cuts from Japanese and European vehicles, I don't think this dumbing down of their products will cost them over night, but if it carries on this way for 10-20 years then yes I think it could.  I've met hundreds of people over the years who have no real interest in driving, driving dynamics, performance etc. but at the same time are quite good at interpreting steering feel and feedback without knowing it.  They trow out comments and adjectives like fun, responsive, entertaining, or conversely dull, slow, dead, with no thought that they are describing the presence or lack of sporty traits.  Those are the people Ford may start to lose, those sensitive to vehicle dynamics without being aware of it.  The good news is Ford has time to make amends over the next few product cycles.  

Quick aside before laughing at truck owners.  Who cares about Minnesota and it's paltry 15,000 lakes.  Try a real state with nearly as many lakes, but a coast line second only to Alaksa, that's some real boating territory!! 

Finally pick em up trucks.  I have never, and will never, get the allure of those pointles pick-em-up vehicles, but as has been said it's what people want.  I should be the perfect truck owner.  Own three properties with one of them 250 miles away, do lots of work on all of them.  Frequent trips to Home-Lowes, lumber yards, gardening centers etc.  Done major renovations, roofs, car ports, re-habs.  All the things that people tell you you 'Need' a pick up for.  We love to travel and camp.  Pull a camper and take up to six people at a time (when we had an Explorer that is) Now regularly four or four and a young person.  Have a small boat (Sunfish), frequently go to the stables and hauling stuff.   Do probably at least two vacations a year that are easily 3-4K miles each.  Plus lots of weekends up north camping and or doing outdoor activities.  Again, the kind of things adverts show you you need a pick up for.  Instead of a truck I have a wagon with a roof rack and trailer.  Trailer is more usable than the normal 6' truck bed, and I can have things sticking forward and backward if too large.  I get better comfort, handling, fuel economy, everything.  Trucks are just the new SUV, which replaced the minivarn, which replaced the family wagon, which replaced oversized sedans as America's vehicle style de jour.  Eventually (please, it can't happen fast enough) trucks will fall out of favor and we can downsize the national fleet.  Then people with 'real' cars can finally stop worrying about being run over by a truck who's headlights are higher than your roof, and who's bumper is perfectly placed to go over your hood/trunk and impact you a occupan head height.

bmw88rider
bmw88rider UltraDork
2/15/22 2:22 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

Given today's parts situation, I believe it's a very good thing.

It means that they are bringing to market cars people are willing to wait months for and in a lot of cases pay over MSRP for. That kind of demand is a gold mine right now. Even as we ease the supply restraints over the next 12-18 months, they will continue to have a strong pipeline of enthused and engaged buyers. We all know they will not convert all of them but it is still bringing people in to have the conversation with the dealers. 

Outside of the Rivian (Which Ford has a large stake in), the Corvette, and to some extent the twins, who has that today?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/15/22 2:42 p.m.
RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Interesting way the direction of the thread has been going. While most people don't need crossovers, SUVs, or pickups, I can also admit that a lot of the cars we drive aren't exactly "needed" either. Plenty of people drive sports cars that remain garage queens, don't get autocrossed or tracked, or simply just drive on highways following the speed limits. That would basically mean that most of us sports/sporty car drivers would be better off with a Mitsubishi Mirage/Chevy Spark.

You are 100% correct. 

 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
2/15/22 2:42 p.m.
bmw88rider said:

Outside of the Rivian (Which Ford has a large stake in), the Corvette, and to some extent the twins, who has that today?

Well, Tesla does. My buddy in Florida ordered a new Model Y in November, it's supposed to arrive in May. And try to find a RAV4 Prime right now.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
2/15/22 4:33 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

I owe nothing to Ford having worked at (agency and subsidiaries) or for them for  25 years before being downsized with nothing to show.  But I wish them no ill will and do believe they will be fine.  Their current line up matches what the public wants very well.  And as for an intro vehicle, that is exactly what the Maverick is, and was designed to be.  I used to run the internal showroom at Ford where we did internal and external presentations, shows, dealer forums etc.  When it was announced that ford was exiting most cars in North America, the dealers were not happy as they need a cheap (circa $20K in five years ago money) product to get people into the showroom.  Brand loyalty is still a huge factor and the dealers have to have something in the line up to get young people through the door.  I heard lots of stories from dealers about people who came into showrooms 20-30 years ago and bought a base stripper Festiva or Escort who now come back every 2-3 years for a new $100k Superduty.  All their trucks are doing well, their SUV's are competent to great in class.  They are selling every Mach E they can turn out.  Mustang is doing very well and the Bronco/Bronco Sport are still turning heads on the street 12-18 months on.  If the market makes a sudden change back to cars and small hatchbacks, there is still the Ka, Focus, Puma, Mondeo ready to bring back over with engines that are already sold in this country and everything else proven out.  If America falls back in love with people movers there's the S-Max and Galaxy ready as well.  They look to be hedged nicely on future products.

Now, the one thing that I think is missing from the current Ford line up is that for their more pedestrian offerings, they are not as fun to drive as they used to be.  No, no one expects an Escape or Edge to perform like a sports car (but you can get an ST Edge with real props if you want), but driving recent basic products (Edge and Escape in particular) they do feel more dumbed down than they used to, especially in steering response.  I have a friend that had an older edge, and has just inherited a new one (about a year old) due to a parent passing.  Their opinion, and mine having driven it, is it's definitely lost something in the modern version.  It's difficult to pin point, but even base, non performance Ford's just felt fun and lively, that is now missing.  Now, just as the malaise era didn't kill off the US auto industry over night, it was more like 20 years of minor cuts from Japanese and European vehicles, I don't think this dumbing down of their products will cost them over night, but if it carries on this way for 10-20 years then yes I think it could.  I've met hundreds of people over the years who have no real interest in driving, driving dynamics, performance etc. but at the same time are quite good at interpreting steering feel and feedback without knowing it.  They trow out comments and adjectives like fun, responsive, entertaining, or conversely dull, slow, dead, with no thought that they are describing the presence or lack of sporty traits.  Those are the people Ford may start to lose, those sensitive to vehicle dynamics without being aware of it.  The good news is Ford has time to make amends over the next few product cycles.  

Quick aside before laughing at truck owners.  Who cares about Minnesota and it's paltry 15,000 lakes.  Try a real state with nearly as many lakes, but a coast line second only to Alaksa, that's some real boating territory!! 

Finally pick em up trucks.  I have never, and will never, get the allure of those pointles pick-em-up vehicles, but as has been said it's what people want.  I should be the perfect truck owner.  Own three properties with one of them 250 miles away, do lots of work on all of them.  Frequent trips to Home-Lowes, lumber yards, gardening centers etc.  Done major renovations, roofs, car ports, re-habs.  All the things that people tell you you 'Need' a pick up for.  We love to travel and camp.  Pull a camper and take up to six people at a time (when we had an Explorer that is) Now regularly four or four and a young person.  Have a small boat (Sunfish), frequently go to the stables and hauling stuff.   Do probably at least two vacations a year that are easily 3-4K miles each.  Plus lots of weekends up north camping and or doing outdoor activities.  Again, the kind of things adverts show you you need a pick up for.  Instead of a truck I have a wagon with a roof rack and trailer.  Trailer is more usable than the normal 6' truck bed, and I can have things sticking forward and backward if too large.  I get better comfort, handling, fuel economy, everything.  Trucks are just the new SUV, which replaced the minivarn, which replaced the family wagon, which replaced oversized sedans as America's vehicle style de jour.  Eventually (please, it can't happen fast enough) trucks will fall out of favor and we can downsize the national fleet.  Then people with 'real' cars can finally stop worrying about being run over by a truck who's headlights are higher than your roof, and who's bumper is perfectly placed to go over your hood/trunk and impact you a occupan head height.

The latter is reason some people are in pickups or SUV's.  But I agree they are stupid high.  
        On the other hand Those Semi's intimidate even the 3/4 ton jockeys with lift kits.  You poor car people must be terrified. 
  We agree that some people do dumb things. Like cowboy boots, wide buckles, and cowboy hats?  
  However working pickups have been in use since the 1920's.   They outlast cars by a decade or more. ( my last one went to the junk yard because of rust not wear. And it worked hard for 20 years. Hauling  stuff yours could never do.  Like my whole house,50,000 bd ft of timber and lumber 50-70 tons of stone and rocks. Etc.  race car trailer, 28 ft boats, and a million other things.  For almost 400,000 miles  in doing so I only spent $1000 in repairs. It cost me $1000 a year in payments  and $50 a year in repairs  

     In the 1950's my Grandfather drove his 1930 Ford Model A pickup around  on almost completely bald tires.  Only having 2 tires recapped to get through the winter.  The rust holes were patched with Folgers coffee cans.  Then given a quick swipe with the black paint brush.  Grandpa finally gave up his pickup after his stroke in 1960 and bought his 1960 Chevy  which he kept until his passing. That taught me the value of buying new and selling it to the junk man  

 

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
2/15/22 4:43 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I also can't wait for trucks to fall out of favor. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/15/22 5:16 p.m.
frenchyd said:

        On the other hand Those Semi's intimidate even the 3/4 ton jockeys with lift kits.  You poor car people must be terrified. 

The thing is, for me at least, I have far more confidence in your average semi driver than I do your average half ton pick up driver.  I'm not saying there aren't bad semi drivers, or semi drivers who drive drunk, tired, high, pissed off etc.  But most semi drivers understand exactly what they are driving and have more respect for it's abilities, and more importantly what it can't do, like stop on a dime.  I fear the average half ton pick up driver think's they are in something akin to the Corola they took their test in and drive accordingly, way too close to see or react to the smaller car ahead. 

 

frenchyd said:
However working pickups have been in use since the 1920's.   They outlast cars by a decade or more.

Now this interestes me.  Do you have any figures to support this?  I looked and IHS classes cars and trucks the same, with the current average age now up to basically 12 years.  As a non sientific personal observation, I don't think the average age for trucks is higher than for cars.  I think you also see far more heavily rusted out trucks still on the road, probably due to body on frame vs unibody, but still I'm not seeing all these older trucks vs cars. 

jstein77
jstein77 UberDork
2/15/22 5:55 p.m.

When my Focus RS eventually wears out, it won't be replaced with a Ford truck or SUV.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/15/22 6:05 p.m.

In reply to jstein77 :

Some marketing people don't realize there is a difference.

Before I bought the Volvo, I found a rather rare car at a Ford dealership 3 hours away: a non sunroof Mazdaspeed 6, which I did not know existed.  Car sold before I could look at it, but their sales director or whoever kept e-mailing me about the Edge or Explorer that they have that is right up my alley.  Finally I e-mailed back that I was looking for something with roughly 300hp, all wheel drive, and a trunk.  No trunk = no interest.

 

I mean, I would not kick an STI hatch to the curb, but they don't make minivans with trunks, so it got the point across in monosyllabic words.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
2/15/22 6:15 p.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Are there? Way I see it, if raising prices alone fixes the "Supply Chain Problem" then what you really have is consumer gouging opportunity.  Seems to be the corporate flavour of the month. 

Then again, I am a Cynic at heart.

 

 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/15/22 6:16 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

In reply to jstein77 :

But again, here on GRM we are not your normal customer.  Many many people walk in to the dealer ever 3-4 years when their lease is up and just get whatever is the new hot thing recomended to them by their saleperson that meets their monthley payment.  I bet more people stay with the same manufacturer and jump car to mini van to suv to truck etc., than people who jump manufactureres to stay with a hot hatch, roadster, etc.  This is also why we may be seeing the begining of the end of the great performance era we've been in for a while now.  Cars, hatches, and wagons are getting scarcer ever year, so the performance options based on those cars are going away.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/15/22 6:52 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

I get what you are saying.  But when someone shows interest in a 14 year old car on the used car lot, from clear across the other side of the state, they are not a generic buyer.

Likewise, if I showed interest in running shoes, I'd be annoyed if DSW contacted me about the latest hip waders they got in that I might be interested in instead.

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
2/15/22 7:06 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Living in Texas will eliminate your confidence in average Semi drivers completely. Especially living along the i10. Those guys drive like asshats. And modern 1/2 ton trucks stop ridiculously well, especially for their size. No it doesn't stop like a 911 but I would say it's on par with with a sedan if all things were equal (apples to oranges though). 

I think you don't give the average pickup driver enough credit. There's so many 1/2 ton drivers in the USA that many people have been driving them their entire life. I think we are well aware of its capabilities. And the usual E36 M3 drivers I see on the road are people in "sports" cars who think they have way more skill than they do. I actually cringe and tense up whenever I come across a miata or other small car driver in the road. Driving an F250, Excursion and Expedition; I've been cut off more in those by miatas, small bmw's and hothatches than I have in any other vehicle type. This is why I know how well these trucks stop. 

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