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Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/23/20 11:57 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to nocones :

What prevents you from just saying you have an alternate body on a miata frame? and register and title the original miata? I would think this would be common with older pickup trucks. 

You are allowed to modify your car, right?

Fenders & safety items I would imagine.

In most states you are not allowed to remove the fenders from your car.  You also can't remove the airbag.

All of the safety an emissions items present on the miata donor would need to be kept.

Who's checking on all of the 1992 miata's running around in IL that they all have a stock airbag and a catalytic converter, and that the fenders are still there?

Even if there is a crash or something and the car is found to be out of 'legality' because the owner removed the airbag and used an aftermarket steering wheel, what happens?

If you have to get an inspection, then I understand these types of things. But in IL, the only inspections we get are emmissions tests on OBD-II cars. It seems just claiming you have a modified miata is an easy solution. The other problem would be making sure that your insurance can't deny paying a claim because of said modifications. I also don't know where an insurance company would draw the line between modification and new car.  

 

nocones
nocones UberDork
12/23/20 11:58 a.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

As I said I'm not sure.  I'm only going off the experience of registering the Willy's and reading the laws.  Stuff older then 25 years intended for street use gets imported with paperwork that then gets reviewed by the DMV.  A VIN gets assigned in addition to the one that exists on the vehicle.  That vehicle will be listed  by it's asigned VIN.  I can't import a vehicle older then 25 years that wasn't street legal in its orgin country and just have it become street legal (I can't buy a 1990 benneton F1 car, and register it for street use at the DMV just because it's older then 25 years.  The car won't have the proper importation paperwork required to use that allowance to get and assigned VIN).  I also likewise don't think the law allows me to build a replica of a vehicle not offered for US sale that is older then 25 years.  I can't build a replica Nissan Pao but I can either import a real one, or build one and title it as 2020 custom vehicle that happens to look like a Nissan Pao. 

Again my understanding of the IL law is I have a few options to register non serial production vehicles.  I build a Replica with a MSO for the kit which gets an assigned VIN.  I build a custom constructed vehicle that has assigned VIN of the year I am replicating (Assuming the replica is of a actual vehicle offered for street use).  I import a vehicle that was legal for road use in it's county of origin with all required import paperwork and it gets an assigned VIN of the year it was produced. Or I build anything else including cars that are truly new and it gets inspected against current DOT MVSS and emissions standards and then gets and Assigned VIN of year 2020.  I do not know how far you can go away visually from a Replica and still get away with it.  Obviously most hot rods don't fully look like 33 ford's but they manage.  I'm also sure there are cars out there in illinois that have really really pushed the limits of "looks like" but I wouldn't count on it.  You could argue that this looks enough like a Lotus 7 if you squint.  5/10 of them may make it through the the system that way.  But I wouldn't start the build unless it was a guarantee that you can pass the wickets.

 

I'm also really interested in how rebodies of Unibody cars work.  As someone who is planning to under take one soon.  I'm intending to just register it as the unibody underneath.  It will be a WRX wearing a funny suit.  I would also love to someday build a Alfa Romeo Carabo on a Boxster.  I'm kinda planning to just do it.  That's another topic.  

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/23/20 12:01 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Move to Minnesota. Head lights taillights mufflers and you're good to go. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/23/20 12:20 p.m.
Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Who's checking on all of the 1992 miata's running around in IL that they all have a stock airbag and a catalytic converter, and that the fenders are still there?

Even if there is a crash or something and the car is found to be out of 'legality' because the owner removed the airbag and used an aftermarket steering wheel, what happens?

If you have to get an inspection, then I understand these types of things. But in IL, the only inspections we get are emmissions tests on OBD-II cars. It seems just claiming you have a modified miata is an easy solution. The other problem would be making sure that your insurance can't deny paying a claim because of said modifications. I also don't know where an insurance company would draw the line between modification and new car.  

As with questions about tow ratings and trailers, the place where the "who checks?" questions becomes relevant is what happens in court after a big crash.  If someone dies in your passenger seat, the fact that you ignored state laws about vehicle safety is not going to look good when their surviving children file a wrongful death suit.

 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/23/20 12:26 p.m.

I've never been a resident somewhere without yearly inspections & emissions, so I honestly don't know.  In VA where I lived, all of those things would be checked.  Same with here in NC.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
12/23/20 12:38 p.m.

Some of thoughts on this:

Sticky tires in narrow 16" sizes are available.

Given the weight of this car, even a Spec Miata level engine would equate to a 12 second 1/4 mile.

As for driving technique; you can throw any car around but in modern cars on wide sticky rubber it just slows you down. The only difference is that it's actually faster in a old car on treaded tires. Pretend you're on a gravel road and you'll be fine.

I drive a vintage car at modern track days and it's not an issue. The only issue I ever have is people who've never driven an old car are shocked at how much it moves around.

This car will be fun as hell to drive..........period.

tb (minimally supportive)
tb (minimally supportive) Dork
12/23/20 12:47 p.m.

My first thought is that it is beautiful, but I probably don't want one. If I was going to build a kit car, it probably would be this configuration only because personally I don't love sitting on the diff with a mile of hood in front. Also, I am a disabled fat ass and might not be able to actually get in it!

 

Of course, in a few years I will be done using my miata as a challenge car and it will no longer be much good on the street. Might have to look into it then and see if I have changed my mind; it does happen...

RevolverRob
RevolverRob New Reader
12/23/20 1:02 p.m.

I've thought about this for awhile...like all morning...

16" solid (non-wire) tubeless rims:

 

Tires (205/65/16) Michelin Defenders:

Race Series 1:

https://www.scca.com/pages/hill-climb

Race Series 2:

https://timetrial.nasaseries.com/

Race Series 3:

https://www.scca.com/pages/rallycross

Race Series 4:

Your local Dirt Track Oval

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
12/23/20 1:08 p.m.

In reply to RevolverRob :

Like the solid wheels.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/20 1:18 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

Some of thoughts on this:

Sticky tires in narrow 16" sizes are available.

Given the weight of this car, even a Spec Miata level engine would equate to a 12 second 1/4 mile.

As for driving technique; you can throw any car around but in modern cars on wide sticky rubber it just slows you down. The only difference is that it's actually faster in a old car on treaded tires. Pretend you're on a gravel road and you'll be fine.

I drive a vintage car at modern track days and it's not an issue. The only issue I ever have is people who've never driven an old car are shocked at how much it moves around.

This car will be fun as hell to drive..........period.

That's what's going to set this apart - the upright driving position and all that slip angle. I think it'll be riot.

The tires on the prototype: https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/550-x-16 

A low cost slick option :) https://www.outdoortire.com/product/5-50x15-3rib-front-farm-tractor-tire-5-50-15-triple-rib-antique-tires/ 

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
12/23/20 1:34 p.m.

At $800 to $1100 per set (depends on whether Blockey has to charge VAT for overseas orders) I'd say the prices are reasonable given what the car will be used for..................I'm spending that much on 13" Hoosiers.

 

RevolverRob
RevolverRob New Reader
12/23/20 1:49 p.m.

185/80/VR15 Vredstein Sprint Classics - $219/tire at Coker, works out to ~900 bucks a set. 26.5" tall. Should wear fine for track, offer a streetable tire for those who are going street driven, offer plenty of grip, since they're really intended for cars in the ~2200 pound range. Still plenty of slip, classic look.

I think this is how I would lean. I've had Vredstein Sprint Classics on two different LBCs, including a Midget with all of 70hp and had no problem breaking them loose. In 1300 pounds with ~150 horsepower you should be having a lot of fun.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/20 1:53 p.m.

I don't believe VAT is collected if the parts are shipped directly overseas and not delivered inside the UK. That's been my experience.

My Locost would get a full season of trackdays out of a set of RA1s. I don't think tire costs would be a major problem, certainly far less than my V8 Miata.

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter)
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/23/20 2:02 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I don't believe VAT is collected if the parts are shipped directly overseas and not delivered inside the UK. That's been my experience.

Correct. If the recipient is either VAT registered (IOW, another business) or the goods are shipped outside the UK (used to be outside the EU, but either way the US would qualify), the seller doesn't and shouldn't charge VAT to the customer.

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
12/23/20 2:13 p.m.
nocones said:

I wouldn't start the build unless it was a guarantee that you can pass the wickets.

Unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter. If your car doesn't fit neatly into one of their imperfectly defined categories, which can easily happen with some of the more 'creative' ideas, then things become significantly more uncertain.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/20 2:21 p.m.
Driven5 said:
nocones said:

I wouldn't start the build unless it was a guarantee that you can pass the wickets.

Unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter. If your car doesn't fit neatly into one of their imperfectly defined categories, which can easily happen with some of the more 'creative' ideas, then things become significantly more uncertain.

The solution here is to contact the IL DMV directly and ask them. When I was looking to register my Seven in CO, my two best sources of information were reading the actual statues (in books at the public library or at the state patrol office) and the DMV.

modelcitizen72
modelcitizen72 New Reader
12/23/20 2:40 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Sweeeeeeeeeet

Snrub
Snrub Dork
12/23/20 2:44 p.m.
Schmidlap said:

Does anyone know anything about registering a kit car in Ontario because this kit is seriously something I want to do. 

Registering a car in ontario isn't terrible, insuring it is. It's possible to get kit car insurance through Hagerty as of a few years back, but they primarily insured replicas of street cars. They don't like "race cars", so I don't know if they'd accept this. Another option is to go through facility, the insurer or last resort as it provides a insurance for high risk drivers. When I looked into a Exocet it was going to be at least $4k/year.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/20 2:55 p.m.
Snrub said:
Schmidlap said:

Does anyone know anything about registering a kit car in Ontario because this kit is seriously something I want to do. 

Registering a car in ontario isn't terrible, insuring it is. It's possible to get kit car insurance through Hagerty as of a few years back, but they primarily insured replicas of street cars. They don't like "race cars", so I don't know if they'd accept this. Another option is to go through facility, the insurer or last resort as it provides a insurance for high risk drivers. When I looked into a Exocet it was going to be at least $4k/year.

There are some difficulties in importing kits to Canada as well, they need to use a minimum number of parts from a donor. The Exocet is legal, this one might be as well as it uses a similar amount of Miata. But that will have to be sorted out through Transport Canada first.

For insurance, contact an independent insurance broker. It's what they do, they'll come up with something interesting. I have affordable insurance on the V8 Targa Miata and my insurer knows exactly what it is and what it does.

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
12/23/20 3:29 p.m.

This is right up my alley. So much great stuff came out of the 20s and 30s racing design. I am looking forward to someone making one of these. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
12/23/20 6:44 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

It's not really any easier in the UK, I don't think. It's that people in the US seem to spend more time talking about how hard it is :) The SB100 exemption in CA is an example. Based on talking to people who have done it, it's not really that difficult. But the legends around it, good lord. We've managed to get a supercharged V8 Exocet through registration in Massachusetts 100% legally. You just have to read the regs.

SB100 used to be much harder before they adjusted the laws so that the Boyd Coddingtons of the world weren't using up the entire year's allotment on January 2nd for building hot rods.  Also, officially SB100 is only supposed to apply to cars that are replicas of pre-1966 cars.  Obviously that would apply to this car but technically it shouldn't on the Exocet.  Nobody ever actually enforces that, though (I guess you could just argue that the Exocet is a really bad replica of a Lotus 7...)

As for autocross competitiveness, in principle I don't see any reason why it couldn't work for D Mod.  I think the SCCA classing that people are talking about is for road racing though, not autox.

As for US vs UK expectations... Americans have always craved horsepower more than Brits have. :)

 

Not to put too fine a point on it BUT: 1) The SB100 process is one of the best documented and easiest processes in the US - just ask around on the Exocet facebook groups. 2) There hasn't been a wait for the sb100 process for years, generally there are left over numbers at the end of the year now (the entire time I lived in SF). 3) You get registered year wise, but that's for their system so you get exempt from SMOG. SB stands for "special build" and was/is always intended for kit cars, not specifically replicas. 

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/Referee_Program/Specially_Constructed_Vehicles.aspx

Like Keith said, If more people spent 1 hour calling their DMV they could get more information than just whining about how hard it's going to be. VERY few states make it that hard, I have a street legal Exocet. 

 

If I get this kit it will be registered and street driven - probably registered as a replica since that's easy in TN. 

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
12/23/20 7:18 p.m.

accordionfolder : My understanding is that the law was introduced by a California senator who couldn't get his Cobra registered, so he created Senate Bill 100 ("SB100"), and that's how we in California register home-built cars. It's hard to tell if you're implying above that it works in other states, but if so, it does not.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
12/23/20 7:36 p.m.

In reply to kb58 :

Lol, as someone with a street legal Exocet registered in TN, I'm aware. Reread the quote I was replying to - I was fairly sb100 savvy since I was originally going to register it in CA, but moved back to TN before I finished it. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/23/20 8:45 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

Not to put too fine a point on it BUT: 1) The SB100 process is one of the best documented and easiest processes in the US - just ask around on the Exocet facebook groups. 2) There hasn't been a wait for the sb100 process for years, generally there are left over numbers at the end of the year now (the entire time I lived in SF). 3) You get registered year wise, but that's for their system so you get exempt from SMOG. SB stands for "special build" and was/is always intended for kit cars, not specifically replicas. 

https://www.bar.ca.gov/Consumer/Referee_Program/Specially_Constructed_Vehicles.aspx

Like Keith said, If more people spent 1 hour calling their DMV they could get more information than just whining about how hard it's going to be. VERY few states make it that hard, I have a street legal Exocet. 

I have been reading, calling, and otherwise looking into SB100 registration for about 15 years now, I know how it works.  Like I said, it *used* to be much more difficult to get one of those numbers than it is now.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/23/20 8:59 p.m.

IIRC they bumped the number from 500 to 750 a while back, right about the same time 2008 happened and people stopped building Cobras. Let the system catch up.

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