NOT A TA said:Step up to the 2000's Frenchy. Use a single stage acrylic urethane and a modern gravity feed gun that won't create a cloud of over spray. You can buy a new gun for like $15.00-20.00 at HF that will be fine for your project.
I own a gravity fed HVLP gun , I've owned it for over 20 years I use it with Lacquer.
I wrapped my Camaro race car (you can see that in my build thread along with the deep furrowed lines in my brow)...it was like a wallpaper nightmare to me, and I really hate wallpaper. If I ever build another race car, it will be painted.
I think a single stage urethane would be a good choice..the Group 44 is pretty simple, so I wouldn't use a wrap. At the very most, I would put vinyl on the bottom green, but with nice straight lines, I think i would just mask and paint it old school. I get using Lacquer...I use it at work (guitars) and it is forgiving and super easy to touch up. And it sounds good...I'm not sure how that will work into your project, but it's true!
In reply to demnted :
He already know what he was going to do; just does things like that.
In defense of his method, I also think what he is going to do is exactly what he should. Already has a good plan, and no reason for us to talk him out of it.
In reply to jh36 :
That's what I needed to hear. I've never wrapped a car. Is it something I should attempt?
Then there are guys who tell me do this or hill that. I understand that's what they do but no one has told me why.
Plus I did a catalyzed paint.
Once. It darn near killed me. You have to use this (Imron?) it's new, the best, really tuff, etc etc etc.
OK what do I need••••••
No mention of dangers, nothing about a painting suit or fresh air or anything like that. Just this kind of thinner and this and that.
So if you want to convince me, tell me about the bad stuff too. Tell me how to, why it's better?
frenchyd said:In reply to jh36 :
That's what I needed to hear. I've never wrapped a car. Is it something I should attempt?
Then there are guys who tell me do this or hill that. I understand that's what they do but no one has told me why.
Plus I did a catalyzed paint.
Once. It darn near killed me. You have to use this (Imron?) it's new, the best, really tuff, etc etc etc.OK what do I need••••••
No mention of dangers, nothing about a painting suit or fresh air or anything like that. Just this kind of thinner and this and that.
So if you want to convince me, tell me about the bad stuff too. Tell me how to, why it's better?
I would not wrap your car. No way. It's too easy to paint that giant white canvas. And if you like shooting lacquer, go for it.
In my experience Lacquers have more issues with solvent contact, but...it's a race car. And it's mostly white.
I say, do what makes you happy. If you don't want to switch horses, stay in the saddle.
To answer your question, I usually shoot urethane on race cars with a cheap HF gravity gun, tyvek suit, gloves, goggles and a hood. I developed a bad reaction to acetone from years of doing stupid things, and that system works for me. It's easy to control with reducers and retarders, and is fast...higher build without runs than most lacquers I've used. (Again, I've never shot a car but I have done furniture and instruments)
Regardless, paint with the material you enjoy. But in my opinion,don't consider wrapping it.
03Panther said:In reply to demnted :
He already know what he was going to do; just does things like that.
In defense of his method, I also think what he is going to do is exactly what he should. Already has a good plan, and no reason for us to talk him out of it.
Thank you for understanding me. I am open minded. But I need to be convinced to do something different.
Not everything new is better. Yes a lot of things are but I haven't been explained why.
I'm willing to try a wrap but maybe I shouldn't? Is a wrap something I can do? Or will it be too demanding of a 73 year old guy? Is it like painting? Something that I could fix my mistakes? Or watch a few DIY video's and figure it out?
Yes I have a HVLP gun but it didn't paint better than my old DeVilbus or Snap On. I painted the XKE race car on the rotisserie and wow did that go easy. No runs or drips. Smooth even shiny finish. Loosened up the bolts on the ends and slowly rolled it over. Pretty much painted everything on the flat.
I don't know if the XJS is as well balanced. Plus with the roof I'd probably have to paint that on a pair of ladders with a couple of planks
jh36 said:frenchyd said:In reply to jh36 :
That's what I needed to hear. I've never wrapped a car. Is it something I should attempt?
Then there are guys who tell me do this or hill that. I understand that's what they do but no one has told me why.
Plus I did a catalyzed paint.
Once. It darn near killed me. You have to use this (Imron?) it's new, the best, really tuff, etc etc etc.OK what do I need••••••
No mention of dangers, nothing about a painting suit or fresh air or anything like that. Just this kind of thinner and this and that.
So if you want to convince me, tell me about the bad stuff too. Tell me how to, why it's better?I would not wrap your car. No way. It's too easy to paint that giant white canvas. And if you like shooting lacquer, go for it.
In my experience Lacquers have more issues with solvent contact, but...it's a race car. And it's mostly white.
I say, do what makes you happy. If you don't want to switch horses, stay in the saddle.
To answer your question, I usually shoot urethane on race cars with a cheap HF gravity gun, tyvek suit, gloves, goggles and a hood. I developed a bad reaction to acetone from years of doing stupid things, and that system works for me. It's easy to control with reducers and retarders, and is fast...higher build without runs than most lacquers I've used. (Again, I've never shot a car but I have done furniture and instruments)Regardless, paint with the material you enjoy. But in my opinion,don't consider wrapping it.
Thank you for that input. You've pretty well convinced me. What about those two lower green stripes? Dark and light green, the Quaker state colors. Put those on with a wrap?
I'm thinking they would be like a big decal or should I tape them off and spray them?
I'm more than a bit worried about running all over the car at my age and being able to finish a panel before I need to rest.
I know what you mean about doing stupid stuff with a paint gun. When I painted my Corvette with Emron(?) I darn near killed myself. It was almost a decade before I could go near a paint shop without wheezing and getting light headed.
In reply to frenchyd :
I would mask and spray the Quaker state stripes also. They are fairly straight lines. I'm happy I did a wrap to say I've done it), but i did not enjoy it. It gets much better with more hands, but with your color scheme...I would definitely paint.
In reply to demnted :
Just experience with him and paint. He's not gonna do anything else, even if catalyst paint has come a long way from a 70's paint that was not designed for automotive use. Lacquer it is.
demnted said:With body on a rotisserie, could you not start on say passenger bottom, rotate to where you can reach little past half on roof, then mirror that position to finish roof and walk color down driver's side. Bottom and engine compartment could be done before with very little degradation of appearance. The more modern single stage paints are way more tolerable than Imron was but a spray sock, gloves and charcoal mask is very least in PPE. The lower the V.O.C. the less fuming you generally have to put up with. Before US Paints was sold to Axo nobel, sp., I helped to prototype a water based single stage. Was really wild to be painting engine rooms and other area that were usually uninhabitable while using solvent paint.
That's the way I plan on doing it but I'll need someone to rotate the car for me. I'm afraid I won't have the juice to do whole panels before I have to sit and rest if I have to run back and forth to loosen- rotate- tighten- and paint-
Since I'll be painting in the tuck under shop, I'll have to seal the ceiling and walls with plastic to minimize fumes up in the house.
I'm interested in the water based single stage paint. Does it shine like auto paint? How fast does it dry? I don't suppose it has the depth of finish that lacquer does but since it's white it shouldn't matter will it?
How will it hold up on the race track?
Can you spot touch nicks and chips? Then sand, buff, and wax to make them disappear?
03Panther said:In reply to demnted :
Just experience with him and paint. He's not gonna do anything else, even if catalyst paint has come a long way from a 70's paint that was not designed for automotive use. Lacquer it is.
If it didn't have to be catalyzed I'd look at it. But I still run out of a paint booth that was last used with a catalyst even if it's been a long time.
I'll look at tractor enamel again. The low price per gallon is appealing.
In reply to demnted :
Oops $$$$ is a real concern. I'm trying to get it finished under the 2000 challenge budget.
So I have to cut costs. That prevents having someone do it for me.
The other issue is I'm trying to do a nice enough paint job that Vintage racing groups will accept me.
The fenders will have white Gel coat, so maybe I can do it with a single gallon of paint.
frenchyd said:03Panther said:In reply to demnted :
Just experience with him and paint. He's not gonna do anything else, even if catalyst paint has come a long way from a 70's paint that was not designed for automotive use. Lacquer it is.
If it didn't have to be catalyzed I'd look at it. But I still run out of a paint booth that was last used with a catalyst even if it's been a long time.
I'll look at tractor enamel again. The low price per gallon is appealing.
Dude, I've been spraying urethane with reactive reducer for over 30 years. Lacquer is old crap paint. I USED to spray it in the'70s and early '80s on vintage cars and old school hot rods. Never again. And the thinner used is WAY bad for you. I don't wear Tyvek suits or goggles and with the HVLP paint gun there's pretty much no overspray or things going in the air. Even if I'm spraying in my garage, there's no odor or reaction in the house and my wife doesn't even complain about anything (and if it came in the house she would, as she's sensitive to the smell).
I've talked to you about this before, but we shouldn't have to write a novel on why modern urethanes (including waterborne and RTS) are vastly better for car paint than lacquer, just to get over your stubbornness and SINGLE bad reaction to an old, outdated product (Imron). This is House of Kolor urethane both in the stripes and in the clear on top, done in my garage with no sealing needed for the garage to house (the bedroom is above the garage and the door leads into the kitchen. No paint came in, and I wore nothing but a respirator.)
Modern urethanes (technically, urethane enamels) are easy to spray, durable, easy to buff, runs and dust can be sanded out and polished up, they don't dull out like lacquers, but are easy to polish if needed (though it's rare that they need to be. If your MG was painted with a modern urethane, then you'd only need to wash it and wax it after pulling it out from under cover like that). They are easy to touch up and repair if you make a mistake or damage it later. EVERYTHING you say they aren't. But why listen to someone that uses them and has for decades?
I've been following the industry for a loooong time, reading the books and magazine articles covering custom automotive paints and why they are what they are. I had a shop doing custom paint for a decade. I sold automotive paint. I COULD write a novel on it for you, but I'm not going to, since decades of experience aren't good enough for you. I mean, I don't care what you do to your own car, and I love the progress you are making. It's a really cool project. I just think your attitude about the assistance given sucks.
Oh, and here's a previous Challenge car, all done in PPG urethane here in my garage over the course of a week.
This was done to match a hot wheels paint job...
Same garage, R&M brand paint, notice how little overspray there is?
None of these were show cars so I didn't try to paint them in show car clean paint booths (I've done that before, too), but they turned out as good as or better than factory paint even in those conditions, which is why I use that type of paint. So forgiving. So easy to use. And so durable for street or race cars. And the customizing possibilities are endless... So do what you want, but at least try to listen to people with experience, ok?
In reply to Chris_V :
Chris; thank you, You got a thumbs up from me. You explained something that addressed my fears.
Reaction to the fumes. Ease of application and ability to correct runs & mistakes.
Please continue with two other concerns. Are those clear coated? If so is the process the same regarding PPE?
Second a simple refrigerator white color. What would a gallon cost ( with thinners etc.).
I am going to listen to you since you did address my concerns.
Frenchy,
I'm a rep for Rubber-Seal Medallion products. We have an industrial line (MFI) which has a single stage polyurethane in any color for about $140.00 for a catalyzed and reduced gallon (roughly 6 quarts sprayable) in any color. I used the white on my race car. It dries quickly and is easy to cut and buff if needed. One of our big customers is Coca Cola, so that should tell you something about the quality in spite of the low cost. If you contact the company headquarters they can put you in touch with a rep local to you ( 800-257-6547}. It's worth a look in any case. I also have been a body shop owner and painter for over 40 years.
frenchyd said:In reply to jh36 :
That's what I needed to hear. I've never wrapped a car. Is it something I should attempt?
Then there are guys who tell me do this or hill that. I understand that's what they do but no one has told me why.
Plus I did a catalyzed paint.
Once. It darn near killed me. You have to use this (Imron?) it's new, the best, really tuff, etc etc etc.OK what do I need••••••
No mention of dangers, nothing about a painting suit or fresh air or anything like that. Just this kind of thinner and this and that.
So if you want to convince me, tell me about the bad stuff too. Tell me how to, why it's better?
Imron is not your normal catalyzed enamel. It is polyurethane and emits isocynates - the same stuff that killed and injured 500,000 in Bhopal, India. If you sprayed Imron without proper ventilation and safety equipment, you are fortunate to be able to tell us about it.
Catalyzed acrylic enamel is a completely different class of material. Not exactly safe, but not in the same zip code as Imron.
Edit: And was mentioned (and very well explained), water borne urethanes have even fewer VOCs than solvent-based paint.
Don49 (Forum Supporter) said:Frenchy,
I'm a rep for Rubber-Seal Medallion products. We have an industrial line (MFI) which has a single stage polyurethane in any color for about $140.00 for a catalyzed and reduced gallon (roughly 6 quarts sprayable) in any color. I used the white on my race car. It dries quickly and is easy to cut and buff if needed. One of our big customers is Coca Cola, so that should tell you something about the quality in spite of the low cost. If you contact the company headquarters they can put you in touch with a rep local to you ( 800-257-6547}. It's worth a look in any case. I also have been a body shop owner and painter for over 40 years.
Thank you. I'll follow up on your offer.
In reply to CJ :
I appreciate what you said about Imron. I hope you and others understand how seriously that stuff scared me.
If indeed catalyzed enamel is pretty benign I will be looking at it seriously and if I can afford it I'll load up my HVLP gun and spray it.
I look at the depth of my lacquer finish on my cars and no base cost clear coat ever looks as rich or deep. To my eyes it just looks plastic.
But I understand it. I'm comfortable
Just telling me it's bad, flawed, and not modern won't convince me.
Horses are cantankerous and labor intensive, can't go as far as a car with a full tank of fuel. But Horses can create horses. Car's can't. Horses can respond to people and return that attention and affection. Some people like Horses, most don't care. But those that do aren't wrong. They simply have a different algorithm .
Frenchyd,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with lacquer. It has many benefits, as you have mentioned. Maintenance is also more labor-intensive than a urethane (particularly if stored outside) and it more prone to stone chips, etc. At the end of the day, it's a race car. Do whatever you think will keep you on the track with the least hassle. It may not be what others would do, but you have to actually do the work.
In reply to CJ :
Thanks. I realize I'm the odd duck here. I might influence others and I know for sure others have helped me a ton. It's thanks to the people on this site that I'm still active in racing at my age.
I'm thinking about my next car. It won't have any paint because it will be all aluminum Chassis, engine, everything except the tires. Oh and maybe the wire wheels.
12 cylinders and 18 inch wire wheels.
In reply to frenchyd :
Tell them Don Walsh sent you.
frenchyd said:In reply to CJ :
Thanks. I realize I'm the odd duck here. I might influence others and I know for sure others have helped me a ton. It's thanks to the people on this site that I'm still active in racing at my age.
I'm thinking about my next car. It won't have any paint because it will be all aluminum Chassis, engine, everything except the tires. Oh and maybe the wire wheels.
12 cylinders and 18 inch wire wheels.
Frenchyd, I've pretty much been in your corner, since I've joined the hive, so please don't take this the wrong way. But.... One can make a hole in the wall using one's head. Head hurts, job done. But if someone shows you a tool that can make said hole, without the head hurting, why not try it. By the way, love this project, please carry on.
03Panther said:In reply to demnted :
Just experience with him and paint. He's not gonna do anything else, even if catalyst paint has come a long way from a 70's paint that was not designed for automotive use. Lacquer it is.
Believe it or not I'm convinced to try Urethanes. Several people have answered my fears enough for me to give it a try.
I've even decided to try a new Harbor Freight Gravity HVLP . I'm willing to accept the past 20 years may have improved them enough that they might be better then my old HVLP gun and Snap On & Divilbis. ( I still have my pressure reducer)
03Panther said:In reply to demnted :
Just experience with him and paint. He's not gonna do anything else, even if catalyst paint has come a long way from a 70's paint that was not designed for automotive use. Lacquer it is.
Believe it or not I'm convinced to try Urethanes. Several people have answered my fears enough for me to give it a try.
I've even decided to try a new Harbor Freight Gravity HVLP . I'm willing to accept the past 20 years may have improved them enough that they might be better then my old HVLP gun and Snap On & Divilbis. ( I still have my pressure reducer)
In reply to frenchyd :
Glad to see you've agreed to use a modern urethane. I just recommended using it without reasons in answering your initial question but Chris & Don contributed well as to why.
The advantage of BC/CC is for vehicles that will see a lot of time outdoor exposed to the elements. IMO it's a waste of time/money for hobby cars and race cars that don't see a lot of time exposed to the elements. I've done testing of single stage urethane and BC/CC urethane on samples left on the roof of my house in full sun here in S FL for years and the single stage still looks good. The samples were shot with various grades of PPG paints and PPG 2021 clear (higher quality clear than most folks would use) was used for the BC/CC pieces. Cheaper paints don't hold their color as well in our brutal sun in my experience but since the colors on your car won't be on the hood/roof/trunk where they'd fade quicker I doubt you'd have any issues using lower priced paint for the colors, especially since it won't be exposed full time and you're up North.
Your old HVLP gun probably wouldn't work well anyway due to age, especially if it hasn't been used in years. The bang for the buck of the HF guns is amazing IMO. Although they don't have the adjustability of more expensive guns or the durability and can't really be rebuilt, they can work surprisingly well. I've got several with different tip sizes etc. and they get used far more frequently than the more expensive guns I have that really only get used for top coats on big areas or whole cars.
I've used "fleet white" in the past and it's usually less expensive than buying custom mixed white which often have more of other colors mixed in. If you don't have a certain shade of "white" desired the fleet white might save ya a few bucks.
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