Just how “good” are the really good coilovers?

In reply to ProDarwin :

A quality street shock should handle 500#  springs. SpecMiatas run 700# on a street Bilstein, for example. As for the welding bit, I'd be looking for a strut that has the mounting tab close to where I want and I would weld to them, not the pressurized shock tube itself. By adding new tabs you can adjust camber to your liking. I've seen the holes in tabs welded up and drilled in the appropriate spot for the new application,  too. Whenever I'm trying to substitute parts I find an afternoon in the local pick-n-pull is worthwhile. I take measuring devices and phone pictures of the stock part I want to replace and do some careful measuring in the yard. Understanding what you want for upper mounts is necessary, too. Monroe used to have a good site with shock dimensions so I could make some basic comparisons sitting at my computer.

DeadSkunk said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

A quality street shock should handle 500#  springs. SpecMiatas run 700# on a street Bilstein, for example. 

...but not well. They sucked. They were chosen because they were cheap, and replaced because they didn’t work unless you (illegally) revalved them.  I would not claim that any random shock should handle a specific spring rate, there are way too many variables. 

I have welded to shock bodies. I just took it slowly and had a wet towel wrapped around the body to keep most of the heat confined. It worked well. Protege5 OE Bilsteins onto a 323 GTX. 

NickD said:

Keith Tanner said:

 

I find it interesting that “amount of change per click” is viewed as a metric for judging shocks. It’s not something I’d considered. 

It makes sense though. If you're super ultra race car driver and need absolutely minute adjustment, something that makes massive changes per each click isn't going to work for you. On the flip side, I'm reminded of Mike Finnegan saying how for a year he thought there was something fundamentally wrong with the chassis on Blasphemi because they would make a few clicks on the shock and nothing seemed to be changing or getting better. Over the winter, he sent the shocks out and had them dyno'd and discovered, no, they just had really minute adjustments, so if they needed big changes, they had to go to town and crank the adjustment knobs.

That’s just a matter of knowing your equipment. I think it’s mosly “I moved something and I can really feel it!” that people like. If you cant feel anything, crank in that knob. Bracket the extremes so you know what over and under damped feel like, then start moving from soft because it’s easier to feel under damped than over  

Our Fox are more granular than our AFCOs were, but you can still feel a difference from click to click when you’re in the zone. When you’re way out, it can feel like the adjustments aren’t doing anything.  I always start with big adjustments and then zero in when I’m dealing with a new shock setup. 

Keith Tanner said:

DeadSkunk said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

A quality street shock should handle 500#  springs. SpecMiatas run 700# on a street Bilstein, for example. 

...but not well. They sucked. They were chosen because they were cheap, and replaced because they didn’t work unless you (illegally) revalved them.  I would not claim that any random shock should handle a specific spring rate, there are way too many variables. 

I have welded to shock bodies. I just took it slowly and had a wet towel wrapped around the body to keep most of the heat confined. It worked well. Protege5 OE Bilsteins onto a 323 GTX. 

Agree on the SpecMiata shock being too weak for 700#, but we're talking about a compromise for Darwin's Challenge build. Sometimes "good enough" is the best you can do on a $2K budget.

Sorry, I thought we were still talking generalities. For the Challenge, you don’t need much as has been shown!

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Corollas on bump stops !

Properly set up dampers are worth every penny. The funny thing about that is very often this doesn't mean having quadruple adjustable super bucks units...........but sometimes it does.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I used to race an ITB Volkswagen GTI. Aftermarket springs and Bilstein HDs for suspension. It ran pretty well, but then I sent the shocks off to Trusports to be revalved to match the springs. The difference was really impressive. I couldn't feel a great difference, but I suddenly was hitting the rev limiter in a couple of corners where that had never happened before. Well worth the money spent.

Keith Tanner said:

I have welded to shock bodies. I just took it slowly and had a wet towel wrapped around the body to keep most of the heat confined. It worked well. Protege5 OE Bilsteins onto a 323 GTX. 

To clarify, we are talking about a sealed shock full of fluid?

DeadSkunk said:

Agree on the SpecMiata shock being too weak for 700#, but we're talking about a compromise for Darwin's Challenge build. Sometimes "good enough" is the best you can do on a $2K budget.

I feel like Miata Bilsteins are still several steps above what you would find on a crappy econobox.  But I guess I could try throwing some ~400lb springs on stock struts and see what happens.  I can always modify the swaybars to get a little more roll control.  

And I guess on 300tw tires, roll won't be nearly as much of an issue.

Which particular econobox are we talking about? You can find good shocks for many cars that might be adapted to fit.

Saturn.  Neon and WRX are close enough and easily adapted.  Finding a set of ACR konis in the junkyard would be like striking gold.

Do you have other suggestions?

Yes, the shocks were sealed and full of fluid and worked just fine when I was done :)

Dave M said:

Any thoughts from the hive on BC coilovers? They seem like great value on paper.

I have them on my Solstice coupe and they have been excellent at a very reasonable price.

Am considering them for my Z4M whenever the stock ones need replacement.

@deadskunk your situation pretty much highlights what I've experienced. I know of a top running Datsun 510 that was running non adjustable dampers (GT-4) and the handling was spot on. The dampers being valved for the car/driver package pays dividends.

The tough thing from a driver stand point is dampers may deteriorate slowly and so one tends to adjust their driving style subconsciously.

I run pretty low end springs/dampers on my track car, but have always wondered if it would make that much of a difference to spend big bucks on a set of something fancier.

GRM, this seems like an opportunity for a real world test and article. Take a single car and do a baseline on stock suspension, then test basic shocks/springs, cheap coilovers, and fancy coilovers. Tires and alignment are the same across each test. Damper tuning is allowed, if available.

Keith Tanner said:

I would take the revalved Konis in that case. Call up Lee Grimes and he’ll get you what you need. 

I find it interesting that “amount of change per click” is viewed as a metric for judging shocks. It’s not something I’d considered. 

Well, as long as they go to 11, I'm happy.

Armitage said:

I run pretty low end springs/dampers on my track car, but have always wondered if it would make that much of a difference to spend big bucks on a set of something fancier.

GRM, this seems like an opportunity for a real world test and article. Take a single car and do a baseline on stock suspension, then test basic shocks/springs, cheap coilovers, and fancy coilovers. Tires and alignment are the same across each test. Damper tuning is allowed, if available.

Many magazines have done similar tests to this, the biggest gain in raw lap time is almost always the tires.

However, what the raw numbers won't tell you is that a car on the "better" suspension may not be as much faster as you'd expect, but the car is much easier to consistently drive at that higher limit.

I think when I went from VMaxx to XIDAs BGK, I dropped an average 2.5 secs per lap at a very bumpy Hallett (much of which has been repaved). And that was on the same the R888s from the year before that were already old when new, and had been stored in a non-climate controlled garage between.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Which Neon generation?  There was a guy in Mexico who had a whole pile of NOS 1gn ACR adjustables that he was selling at a fairly reasonable price on eBay.  I realize that's not much information.  If a used set that needs rebuilding would work for you, I have a set of 1gn Neon Konis that I could part with.  As a bonus, I live a couple towns over from Hebron so if you wanted to have Koni re-build them for you I could drop them off if they allow walk-ins...

Hmm.  1G I believe.  I may have to snag a neon strut from the junkyard tomorrow to compare.