DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
12/24/09 2:55 p.m.

I'm considering entering my Civic in the UTCC. As it sits, it's an un-caged autox car. What changes would need to be made to the car (cage?) and driver (fire suit? license? schools?) in order to enter the event?

wbjones
wbjones HalfDork
12/24/09 3:04 p.m.

start here:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/24/09 4:20 p.m.

You don't need any equipment beyond what you do for HPDE. I think you need to get signed off by an instructor (no special schools). Only thing you need is a transponder.

I'd still go ahead and get a rollbar though. That's just generally prudent when pushing 10/10s at the track.

nasaregistrar
nasaregistrar Dork
12/25/09 10:42 a.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: I'm considering entering my Civic in the UTCC. As it sits, it's an un-caged autox car. What changes would need to be made to the car (cage?) and driver (fire suit? license? schools?) in order to enter the event?

Dave,

To get a NASA TT license you need at least 4 weekends( 8 track days) in an advanced run group where passing is permitted in the corners. My region hosts the UTCC, so you can email me for more info: registration at nasaracing dot net

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/25/09 1:56 p.m.

^ what he said. If you're at or near the limit of 4 weekends in HPDE3 or equivalent, you'll need a check ride. The only things that get you out of the ride are a non-rookie/non-provisional comp license (NASA, SCCA, etc) or NASA instructor certification & experience.

I am another one of the folks who helps with the UTCC and the regional TT director so feel free to email me for info as well: timetrial at nasaracing dot net

ps- car's good to go if it passes HPDE tech. No additional safety equipment required. Driver attire is same as HPDE as well. See http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

ROTARY_X_7
ROTARY_X_7 New Reader
12/25/09 6:48 p.m.

OP thanks for this thread. I am thinking of entering my FD into the same NASA TT next year.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
12/25/09 8:09 p.m.

Lots of reference to HPDE. Never done that. No way I can do 8 of them before July, so I guess if I go, someone else will be driving.

What is required for HPDE tech? Is it more comprehensive than Solo tech?

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/25/09 8:41 p.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Lots of reference to HPDE. Never done that. No way I can do 8 of them before July, so I guess if I go, someone else will be driving. What is required for HPDE tech? Is it more comprehensive than Solo tech?

HPDE = High Performance Driving Education (or Experience). Basically just open track. NASA goes HPDE 1 - 4. 1 is beginner with an instructor. 2 is beginner without an instructor (1 and 2 share run groups). 3 is intermediate with varying passing rules. 4 is advanced, with open passing.

HPDE tech is more comprehensive than Solo tech, but not by a lot.

If you have not done any HPDE before, you will definitely want to. Even excellent driving skills from Auto-x won't make up for it. The big thing you need is track/situation awareness and the ability to adapt to everything on a track.

Just go hit HPDE and have fun. You'll build up to TT levels in good time.

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/25/09 10:42 p.m.
Salanis wrote: NASA goes HPDE 1 - 4. 1 is beginner with an instructor. 2 is beginner without an instructor (1 and 2 share run groups). 3 is intermediate with varying passing rules. 4 is advanced, with open passing.

Depends on the region. In NASA Mid-Atlantic it's more like...

HPDE1) novice with instructor, passing only on straights with a point-by

HPDE2) intermediate with instructor, passing only on straights with a point-by

HPDE3) advanced without instructors, passing anywhere with a point-by

HPDE4) instructors, passing anywhere with a point-by

TT) passing anywhere without a point-by

YMMV...

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/25/09 10:46 p.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Lots of reference to HPDE. Never done that. No way I can do 8 of them before July, so I guess if I go, someone else will be driving. What is required for HPDE tech? Is it more comprehensive than Solo tech?

Possibly more than 8. At least four weekends must be in HPDE3 before you even qualify for the check ride that might get you a provisional TT license, and it may take more than 4 weekends to get to that level (depends on the driver.) So, possibly not do-able for the 2010 UTCC with you driving.

HPDE tech is not much more comprehensive than solo tech. In Mid-Atlantic anyway, it's a similar inspection. Here's the form:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/images/rules-forms/form_hpde_tech.pdf

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/25/09 10:50 p.m.
Salanis wrote: If you have not done any HPDE before, you will definitely want to. Even excellent driving skills from Auto-x won't make up for it. The big thing you need is track/situation awareness and the ability to adapt to everything on a track. Just go hit HPDE and have fun. You'll build up to TT levels in good time.

And, +1 to this...

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
12/26/09 7:12 a.m.

Good stuff. Thanks.

I honestly don't see myself spending the time and money on HPDE to get licensed for TT. I'd more likely just go to racing school. Probably won't do either, as they would take away from the autox budget.

I am glad to see that the car requirements are pretty attainable. I can find a licensed driver easily enough to put the car on track. I'm more interested in the car doing the UTCC than I am in me doing it.

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/26/09 1:56 p.m.

You don't actually get licensed for TT. Just signed off.

Chances are, your car already meets the requirements for HPDE/TT.

Why so resistant to HPDE? It's really a ton of fun.

If your goal is just to try to get your car to the UTCC. Sounds like you just need to track down a driver you trust, work with them to iron out some of the setup tweaks (a car set up to carve and auto-x course will usually be too twitchy for open track), and enter the car that way.

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/26/09 6:03 p.m.
Salanis wrote: You don't actually get licensed for TT. Just signed off.

Signed off = the first signature on the license application, at which time it becomes a provisional:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/images/rules-forms/Time-Trial-License.pdf

Finish one TT weekend without issues and get the second signature then send it out west to have the hard card issued.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
12/26/09 10:10 p.m.
Salanis wrote: Why so resistant to HPDE? It's really a ton of fun.

Time and Money. I autocrossed 26 weekends last year. I wrenched on the car for at least half of the remaining ones. That leaves little time for other outlets. On the money end, HPDE's are expensive to enter, and consumables on the car are fairly ridiculous as well.

Salanis wrote: If your goal is just to try to get your car to the UTCC. Sounds like you just need to track down a driver you trust, work with them to iron out some of the setup tweaks (a car set up to carve and auto-x course will usually be too twitchy for open track), and enter the car that way.

That is now Plan A.

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/27/09 3:49 a.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Time and Money. I autocrossed 26 weekends last year. I wrenched on the car for at least half of the remaining ones. That leaves little time for other outlets. On the money end, HPDE's are expensive to enter, and consumables on the car are fairly ridiculous as well.

I look at it differently. For the amount of solid track time, HPDE is a great value. Not only is your time/$$$ greater, I actually find that I go through less tire at an HPDE than I do at an Auto-x.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
12/27/09 1:37 p.m.

HPDE's also don't scratch the competitive itch for me. Not a judgment on them - just not my thing. TT probably would do it for me, but it seems that the cheaper route to TT would be a road racing license (one $800 school vs. 8-12 $200 HPDE's), plus, then I'd be able to road race if I wanted.

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/27/09 5:36 p.m.

It's not quite that easy or simple. One $800 racing school won't get you a NASA TT license, you'd still need a minimum of 4 weekends w/passing in corners. Also, one $800 racing school won't get you a NASA racing license, you'll still need to do a minimum of a NASA comp school and probably some HPDE time as well. SCCA is another story though

wbjones
wbjones HalfDork
12/27/09 7:00 p.m.

there is some type of reciprocity between SCCA and NASA. If the SCCA license is easier to get, you might check into the requirements to cross license

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/27/09 7:24 p.m.

The reciprocity is only for the full versions of the respective licenses IIRC. And the SCCA license is indeed easier to get which is exactly why it doesn't cross directly over to a NASA license at first.

Assuming no prior experience, with SCCA you can go racing after two race school weekends (or one Skippy school.)

Also assuming no prior experience, with NASA you can go racing after somewhere between six and twenty weekends in HPDE then a NASA comp school.

See the difference?

wbjones
wbjones HalfDork
12/28/09 7:47 a.m.

I wasn't trying to start anything just trying to help DILYSI Dave with a way to do whatever it is he's wanting to do...

one more question on the subject... I have 8 - 9 track days already (not with NASA) do those translate to NASA and enable me to skip a couple of HPDE levels ? (all but 1 at VIR and all but 1 with TrackDaze®)

getfast
getfast New Reader
12/28/09 9:30 a.m.

Yes indeed, TrackDaze events count. Be sure to list that history in as much detail as possible when you sign up for a NASA event.

joepaluch
joepaluch New Reader
1/15/10 8:35 a.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: I'm considering entering my Civic in the UTCC. As it sits, it's an un-caged autox car. What changes would need to be made to the car (cage?) and driver (fire suit? license? schools?) in order to enter the event?

To the car... Nothing.

To the driver. HPDE1 ->2 -> 3 -> 4 ->TT

You will need to work the DE ladder until the point you can deomonstrate to your local NASA TT officials you are safe on track in at TT enviroment. How long this take depends on what skills you have.

Now just becase you autocross does not mean you know how to TT. Remember TT is on track with other cars so one key aspect to safety in TT is playing nice around other cars. TT is open passing so you will need to learn or at least demonstrate you know how yto give safe passes in corners and how to pass safely in corners. No racing mind you, but safe driving at speed near other cars. In TT the goal is clean laps for you and the guys around you. Racing is entirely different so if you have just an SCCA comp license and no HPDE experience you will still get a some close attention before they consider you a safe TTer.

If you are so good on big track HPDE will not take long.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave SuperDork
4/23/10 7:16 a.m.

Alright - got a licensed driver lined up who knows his way around VIR and around Civics. Got me a cardomain page at http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3852600. Now is the part where I shamelessly ask for your votes, which if I understand correctly comes in the way of you rating my car high in the Ratings column on the left of the page.

Browsing some of the other hopefuls, I was glad to see some other challengers taking up the charge. The Westside guys look like they have a pretty stout build going together!

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
4/23/10 7:31 a.m.

registered and voted. Good luck man.

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