ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
10/28/17 4:52 p.m.

I think the time may have come to sell my F250. As much as I love this truck, it makes my wife sick to ride in it because it's so bumpy. I've tried options to make it ride better but it hasn't helped, so let's leave that alone for now.

 

Tell me about WJ (99-04) Grand Cherokees. They fit my parameters - 4x4 that's fairly capable, comfy, tow my 2k lb boat happily for 4 hours to the coast, reliable, and cheap.

 

What were the problem areas? I6 or V8? Best years? Best 4x4 system, why,  and how do you identify them? Biggest tires on stock rims and ride height? Biggest reasonable lift to maintain towing and road manners? Overall experiences and opinions?

 

And yeah, I'd love to have a Land Cruiser but I can't get that much $ out of the truck. 4x4 Sequoias also on the radar but they're more rare than the 2wd.

eebasist
eebasist Reader
10/28/17 5:10 p.m.

Might want to look at the Lexus version of the Land Cruiser...they are often cheaper.

I'd avoid the WJ like the plauge for electical gremlins.  My BIL had one that the alarm went crazy on, and yet I still bought one and it had all sorts of electrical (gauges/lights/etc) issues and sold it quickly.

Mechnically they are rather stout (AWD I believe has the typical viscous coupling issue).  If it wasnt for the electronics it would have been a good truck.

 

 

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/28/17 6:08 p.m.

The WJ is comfy, but if you want simple and reliable, get a ZJ instead (93 - 98, the 96 - 98 facelifted ones are the best of the bunch).  It'll be just as cheap (if not even cheaper), they're simpler, only a little worse riding (still pretty comfy for having stick axles at both ends) and they've got better engine options IMO.  WJs are a little bigger inside though (and have better cargo space due to the spare tire being under the floor instead of in the cargo area). 

In a WJ, you'd want the V8.  Just don't let it overheat.  Ever.  You'll likely cost yourself a set of heads (or a dropped valve seat and a whole motor) if you do.  The 4.0 I6 of those years tends to crack heads randomly for no reason at all, even if never overheated (and the cracks dump coolant straight into the oil, not into the cylinders).  Transmission behind the 4.0 is a hair on the weak side, the one behind the 4.7 (V8) is much better. 

If you look at a ZJ, you also want a V8.  Just as reliable as the 4.0 of those years (if not more so) as long as the intake plenum gasket gets fixed.  The V8 ZJs have the most potential power upgrades of the bunch if you get bored.  V8 ZJ transmissions are pretty beefy, especially if you upgrade the cooling and do the occasional band adjustment and fluid change.  A few turns on the line pressure screw helps too (and makes them shift a lot nicer).  The 93 - 95 5.2s and 98 5.9s have the beefiest transmissions of the group (46RH and 46RE compared to the 44RE the 96 - 98 5.2s use). 

In either Jeep the 4.0 doesn't save a whole lot of gas, so it's not worth the lack of power and smaller trans IMO.  Gas mileage between the ZJ and WJ is pretty close as well, slight edge to the WJ there.  That difference probably drops to 0 when towing.  Cruising range is pretty similar, as the ZJ fuel tank is bigger (23 gal vs 20.5 for the WJ). 

In either case, they're not overly big or long wheelbase (105.9" for both), so I'd tend to stay away from lifting it if you're towing with it.  With either one, 30 - 31" tires will fit at stock height if you don't go too wide.  If you don't mind doing a little trimming, you should be able to get a skinny 32" (like a 235/85R16) under there.  WJs have a hair more tire clearance IIRC (especially to the front lower control arms), but it's not a big difference. 

For 4wd systems, in the WJ, V8s will usually (but not always) come with one of the fulltime systems.  Quadra-Drive is the most capable of those (heavily rear biased until slip in high range, locked center in low range, limited slips in both axles).  In a ZJ, V8s always have the fulltime system.  Those ones will have viscous coupler issues (binding in tight turns) eventually, but swapping the case to a rebuilt one or a part time unit is easy.  Some ZJs have limited slips in the rear, some don't.  96 - 98 V8 ZJs, all V8 WJs and 4.0 WJs with Quadra-Drive have the bigger D44a rear axle (3.73), the rest have the smaller D35 (3.73 for 93 - 95 ZJ V8 and any 4.0 with tow package, 3.55 for 4.0 without tow package).  All have low pinion D30 front axles. 

IMO, ZJs feel a little better on the road.  A little more of the feel of driving an old muscle car in terms of how it responds and power delivery.  WJs are a little more responsive in the steering, but also more cloud-like and disconnected in other ways. 

Both have pretty simple suspension for any modding you may want to do that's near stock height.  ZJ suspension layout is a little simpler / easier to work with (both are a 4 link + panhard up front, ZJ is the same in the rear, WJ rear is a 3-ish link with an upper A arm and no panhard).  IMO, the ZJ rear suspension is a little more stable / planted feeling for towing.  WJ track width is a hair wider (59.5" at both ends vs 58.5 front and 58.8 rear for the ZJ).  That's easily fixable with wheel spacers if you care about the difference for towing stability. 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
10/29/17 7:13 a.m.

Excellent info. So maybe a ZJ is an option too. You talked about intake gaskets and transfer case issues on the V8 ZJs.  What are warning signs on these two issues? I've got a text out to a guy selling a 96 V8 ZJ with 160k on it for 2800.

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/29/17 11:53 a.m.
ultraclyde said:

Excellent info. So maybe a ZJ is an option too. You talked about intake gaskets and transfer case issues on the V8 ZJs.  What are warning signs on these two issues? I've got a text out to a guy selling a 96 V8 ZJ with 160k on it for 2800.

For the transfer case, it's easy to test.  At the end of the test drive once everything is warmed up, drive a tight circle (full steering input) and see if it binds.  If it's binding, it'll feel like a part time 4wd setup left in 4wd on pavement. 

For the intake plenum gasket, the warning sign is oil consumption.  If it burns a quart in 3k or worse, it's probably got a plenum leak.  It's an easy enough fix, pull the intake manifold, replace the bottom plate on it with a new aluminum one and a new gasket (the stock one is thin steel on an aluminum manifold, which causes the gaskets to fail).  Or upgrade to a more performance oriented manifold that doens't have that design flaw. 

Neither issue is an expensive fix.  The plenum gasket with upgraded plate is under $200 in parts and fluids and can be done in 5 - 8 hours.  The transfer case can be rebuilt, or you can swap in a part time case (there's 2 options that bolt right in and one of them saves 20 lbs too!).  Swapping the transfer case to a part time setup varies a bit in cost depending on how cheaply you can get a case, but a little searching would likely yield one under $200 (and the swap is easy enough to do).  To get rid of the binding until you get a chance to resolve it, it's fine to drive a 96 - 98 ZJ without the front driveshaft installed (don't do that on the 93 - 95 fulltime system). 

klb67
klb67 Reader
10/29/17 12:10 p.m.

I drove a 2004 Grand Cherokee from new in 03 to 190,000 + miles and just sold it a few weeks ago.  Inner and outer rocker rust became significant and was a very common issue in these up here in the North East.  I think this generation GC is nicer than the prior generation.  It was quite reliable for me.  The only expensive issue I can recall is replacing the catalytic converters with Factory Replacements. I mostly successfully used a generic cat system that would only occasionally throw a check engine light, and saved  lot.  V8 is the way to go, especially if you haul or tow anything.  

The other thing I'll add is this generation of Grand Cherokee is very common so if you have a place to stash a parts vehicle and an interest in doing so I expect they're more readily available then earlier generations.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/17 1:47 p.m.

We have a WJ that my wife bought new. 2000 model with the V8. It's a Laredo so it avoids all the wear you see on leather seats and doesn't have the problematic blend doors. 

It's competent enough. Boring to drive and doesn't have the character of the XJ I'm driving right now. But she loves it. It has possible the worst interior space possible for a vehicle that size, it's astoundingly small. The engine is happy enough and responds very well to a tune/intake/TB spacer with a big extra slug of torque. The transmission has made a weird whirring noise since new, the vehicle almost sounds electric. But 140k in, it's been solid. I've replaced the headlights twice due to the lenses fogging up on the inside due to UV - you can't buff it out, but thankfully replacements are cheap.

It is starting to show oddball signs of electrical problems, like a right turn indicator that won't work in cold weather and you either get a working brake light bulb or a functioning button on the trip computer, but not both. I've decided to hang on to it for a while longer, though, as a 17 year old WJ is probably as reliable as a brand new GC and doesn't come with $40k in debt.

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/29/17 3:16 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I've replaced the headlights twice due to the lenses fogging up on the inside due to UV - you can't buff it out, but thankfully replacements are cheap.

It is starting to show oddball signs of electrical problems, like a right turn indicator that won't work in cold weather and you either get a working brake light bulb or a functioning button on the trip computer, but not both.

For WJs, there's not a whole lot to do for the headlight fogging.  For ZJs, you can buy the stock type European spec headlights.  Much better beam pattern than the stock units and the lenses are glass, so no fogging (although the heat from high wattage bulbs did eventually start to pit the reflectors on a set I had, so they still don't last forever).  I wish the factory Euro lights were available in the US (they've got much nicer reflectors), but they're basically impossible to get here. 

For the electrical stuff, WJ taillights have a funky design to feed power to the bulbs that's prone to flaking out, especially at the sockets.  Usually the fix requires replacing a taillight or 2. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/17 10:04 p.m.

And after writing that, we got in the Jeep to go home and the lights didn't work. None of them. The wipers also decided it was intermittent time regardless of the stalk setting. I pulled and reseated the taillight fuse and it all came back. Stupid thing. 

Ordering new tail lamp circuit boards tonight.

akylekoz
akylekoz HalfDork
10/30/17 6:04 a.m.

The 99-04 and 2000 to 04 4.0's in the WY and Wrangler had weak pistons, it starts as a slap followed by piston skirts in the oil pan.  Mine and my Son-in-law's both had this happen, search CL for a used motor.  All you find are cores with cracked pistons.  Apparently Chrysler gave the engine better ignitions and intake but a little too weak in the piston area in a quest for MPG.

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/30/17 8:44 a.m.

In reply to akylekoz :

The weak pistons started in 96 for the 4.0.  They don't fail all that often, but it's random as far as if / when they do.  99 - 04 is the year range for the 0331 heads on 4.0s.  Those are the heads that crack randomly (it's estimated that somewhere around 20 - 30% of them fail).  I've seen them crack (top side of the head, between 3 and 4 normally) without ever having gotten hot, etc.  

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
10/30/17 4:06 p.m.

So I'm adding a WJ to the list of Jeeps I'm going to look at. This particular beastie has a rebuilt 4.7 from...dropping a valve seat!  It was rebuilt some 30k miles ago, so it has been run in and tested. 180k total miles, small lift, good tires, factory tow pack, a CAI, full time 4wd...and other stuff for $2900.

 

Anyway, since it dropped a valve seat I'm guessing it overheated. What's the best way to prevent this from happening again? Is just watching the factory gauges not enough? does it need some kind of additional sensors in other locations? A better radiator? What's the smart way to take good care of one?

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/30/17 5:16 p.m.

If you keep an eye on the gauges, you'll be fine.  Most overheating failures are due to the driver not noticing that something is wrong and it's getting hot and running it until something is very clearly wrong.  The cooling systems are pretty adequate in stock form for most situations. 

The 01+ WJ V8s have a cool hydraulic driven cooling fan.  Pretty reliable and moves a metric berkeleyton of air.  99 - 2000 have an electric + clutch fan IIRC.  WJ 4.0s can be electric only or clutch + electric.  ZJs are clutch fan only excluding the 98 5.9, which is e-fan only. 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
10/30/17 5:57 p.m.

Here's the link to the CL ad on the WJ: 1999 Grand Cherokee

 

It sounds good. Hopefully I can get up to Atlanta and take a look this weekend.

rslifkin
rslifkin SuperDork
10/30/17 6:06 p.m.

Looks to be on 32" tires (factory JK takeoff size), so expect the tires to rub a bit unless the bumpers have been trimmed.  Definitely appears to be worth a look. 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
10/30/17 6:16 p.m.

I have a sawzall. 

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