Lets talk tires. And help me understand the learning curve

So i have been tracking for a little while now and want to know what is the natural progression as far as tires go.  I have been using exclusively the Firestone Firehawk tire for 5 years.  It is a great cheap summer tire that has served me well on the track.  I saw cheap as in it used to be cheap but now is $880 a set which is $120 away from knocking on continentals door and $220 from Michelins.

I have progressed further than that tire can take me.  I can turn them into greaseballs within a couple laps and on a hot day at the track the last two sessions I basically have to chill all the way out as the tire gives up.  I have heard street tires do not heat cycle but that is not my experience.  They seem to lose all their grip long before the tread is gone.

I plan to upgrade and need some advice.  I hear track tires are best for track but they do not have that nice, slow transition from grip to slip like street tires.  I am still learning so I feel maybe jumping straight into track tires is a bad idea.  I do not want to ball up my car at the track as I financially cannot just buy a new one right now.  This is the only one I have.  I do also have a RSX type S but that is my GFs DD at the moment.

The street tire I would go with is the Michelin PS4S.  I feel this is the next natural upgrade on track for me.  I could be wrong.  I hear these have progressive breakaway but have also heard some stories of them chunking on heavier cars.  I track a modified 2007 350Z.  I have the correct suspension and alignment specs to track it so I do not know if the chunking issue is just for heavy cars with the incorrect alignment.  These tires are $1350 a set

My other choice is the Goodyeard Eagle F1 Supercar 3.  I have seen these a couple times on cars at the track and yikes can those guys go fast on these gumballs.  It is 220 TW and OEM on a lot of factory muscle cars built for track use.  How much more is this tire going to bite me in the butt when I make a mistake on track?  

I have found regular summer tires to be good all the way down to about 35 degrees when its dry out.  Will a 220 TW tires be able to do that or will it need to be only driven above 50F?  I know the ideal is to buy a track set of wheels and tires but I live in little apartment in Chicago and am running out of space.  I do have a little garage but most of my storage is taken up with my A/S tires.  I may get rid of that set as I do not drive the car in winter.

I am open to any other tire suggestions or suggestions of any kind.  I feel like I do pretty well on my 340TW tires considering I can sometimes pass people on 200TW tires that have cars with way more power than mine.  I also feel there is a lot more for me to learn and do not want to jump straight into slicks or something as I do not feel like I will learn as much that way.  I have seen many people make that mistake.

Breakaway characteristics are more tire specific than category specific, and also will vary by size, application, etc. Certainly Hoosiers usually have very stiff carcasses and aren't super forgiving. Not exactly sure about the in between track tires but there's probably some that are okay. Most of the 200tw options are pretty forgiving these days, but with the caveat that if you're constantly over driving them you'll just rip all the tread off. I'd say one of the few exceptions is the Goodyear. I used them last year and really didn't like the feeling at the limit and the breakaway was usually pretty abrupt. Honestly it sounds like you've advanced enough that I'd probably skip past 300tw to at least the 200tw range. Something like rs4s or maybe rt660s though those will have some heat issues if you're pushing them hard. Heat cycling is another thing that varies by tire, some are good to the cords no matter what you do to them, some very definitely will cycle out before they wear out.

I've run exclusively on Hoosiers for the last 20 years so I can't recommend a specific 200tw tire but I can pass a few things along.

First you've done what I tell most students at track days; keep the rock hard tires till you're at the limit of them all them time.

 If you didn't care about going faster lap time wise I'd say save the $100-$200 but your clearly over driving the 340tw. It's time to try some 200tw tires.

As for which tire; GRM just did a 200tw tire test. That should allow you to decide which one has the breakaway characteristic you're looking for.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I read the two most recent 200 TW tire tests and the only one that has one in my setup is the afrementioned Goodyear Eagle tire.  They are about $1000 a set and it seems guys are getting around 10K street miles and multiple track days out of them which seems to be a very good deal.  The one thing I worry about is our Chicago roads.  Some of them are so bad they are hardly a road.  I know gravel roads that are smoother.  I do not know how a sticky tire is going to fair over a pothole.  I have heard the michelins are very comfortable on the street.  I will try to do some more research but was hoping someone would chime in who has had the Goodyears or another suggestions so I can get a better idea of longevity and street frienliness.  I track this car a lot now but I do use it for other things like short road trips and going out on a saturday night.  That is a big part of the fun for me is to have a fun car I can drive around.  I do not want it to become a dedicated track car as I think that will ruin the fun of it for me.

In reply to dps214 :

You are probably right about switching right over to the 200 TW category.  I heard the Goodyear doesnt heat cycle and is good until the cords.  It should be that way as it is an OEM tire.  

I do tend to overdrive my tires as I feel like I and the car has much more speed but the tires are just giving up on me.  My last track day it was 100F out and the last two sessions I actually told the officials just to drop me into the novice class as my tires were so done I felt bad for slowing down the other group.  Interestingly even with "done" tires I still passed a guy in new GT500 on slicks.  I have no idea why these guys start out as beginners with such intense cars but hey, different strokes for different folks.

What size(s) do you need that only exists in the goodyear? Also note that hankook currently only has like three sizes of RS4 available but that *should* be getting restocked pretty soon. Basically they send one shipment of tires over in spring and that's it for the year.

In reply to dps214 :

I like to run a slight stagger.  So what I have been running on this vehicle is 255/40R18 front with a 275/40R18 rear.  This is actually the same diameter F/R as OEM.  The Michelin PS4S I would run a 265/40R18 Front with a 285/40r18 rear.  If and when I do buy a set of track only wheels they will most likely be 19s as that opens up a lot of doors in terms of tires.  Seems they are phasing out 18" sizes now just like they did with 16" years ago and 17" most recently.

Tires make a huge difference, and it's good to look at the entire field. 

Just want to make sure that you have seen some of our recent content on the subject:

200-Treadwear Tire Test | Goodyear F1 Supercar 3 and Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 vs. the Outgoing Bridgestone RE-71R

Ultimate track tire guide | 200tw, 100tw, street-legal track and R-comps

(And once you're at the tire guide, you'll see lots more helpful links.)

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I did read both of these articles.  I wish there were some more tests showing a broader spectrum of performance tires from all categories doing multiple laps.  The test with 200-100-R comps was very interesting.  But lets bump that up all the way to 400 TW.  I talk to a lot of car guys and their biggest qualm with getting into tracking any of the performance vehicles is the fact that they dont think they have the right setup and do not want to hurt their car or their tires.  They are told by track people that unless they have track brake pads, a seperate set of wheels and tires, special fluids, etc that their car will blow up and their tires will melt.  This has not been my experience at the track.  I think tire technology has come very far and you can track on the higher TW tires.  Will you get the same lap times? Probably not.  Will your tires completely melt? I do not actually think so.  I had a guy on Michelin PS4S friggen lap me during a 30 minutes session.  He was on PS4S.  He said he got 16 track days out of his last set of them.  This leads me to believe you don't absolutely have to go down to 200 or 100 TW just to keep up and definitely not to have fun.  I feel like here anything above a 200 TW tire isn't even considered and that may be that I am in the wrong forum as it is Grassroots Motorsports.  With that said, I doubt anyone here started in their form of motorsports on 200 TW.  You most likely built up to that.  I just think it would be better to showcase a broader spectrum and see what the actual numbers and wear differences are between what most people run on their performance cars and what people at the track tell you that you should have.  I think it could bring more people in if they saw an article that used showed how well a normal street summer tire did on track so they might think "hey, thats what on my car.  Maybe I will take my car to a track day".

Just a thought of mine.

I hear what you're saying: Why not one tire to do it all? As usual, it depends.

First, the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (300tw) is a terrific tire and we have tested it. It's a go-to tire for the One Lap crowd as it trades some speed for longevity and wet weather handling. (And that's relative longevity as these tires aren't likely to deliver 50,000 miles.) But for a do-it-all tire, it's tough to beat. It's not going to melt on track or lose composure at the first drop of rain. See also the 340tw Continental ExtremeContact Sport, another tire that tracks well while delivering miles. 

Both tires are featured in our track tire guide, and you can find more chatter about them in our 2021 One Lap Coverage: The 3500-mile contest that isn’t about the cars | One Lap of America. So, you absolutely don't need 200tw tires for track and, yes, they're definitely part of our world. 

But there's a bit of a cost. Those Michelins aren’t the least expensive tires out there as that R&D costs money. Plus, that model doesn’t come in smaller sizes. 

I'm looking at some tires now, and I picked 225/40R18 since that's what we run on our Civic Si.

Firestone Firehawk Indy 500: $139 each

Falken Azenis RT615K+: $159 each

Continental ExtremeContact Sport: $191 each

Michelin Pilot Sport 4: $192 each

So, my take-home: For less than a hundred bucks more than the Firestones, I can go with a tire that's better suited for track time. But if I want a tire that really can do it all, I have to spend more. And the market will deliver. I just gotta pay for it. (Again, back to those R&D costs.)

So why not just track 400tw tires? Once you start tracking tires not intended for track use, we have found that they start to fall out of their comfort zone–specifically, they get hot, they get greasy, they fall apart. And, at that point, are you really saving money? 

We discussed some of that reality here: Q&A With a Tire Engineer: R-Comp Race Tires vs. 200-Treadwear Extreme Street Tires

But there's always a but: I ran the stock Goodyear Eagle Sport All-Season tires on our 2019 Honda Civic Si. You can read more about that here. The tires held up okay and didn't wear badly at all.

Now, temper that with the fact that it was a relatively light, lower-powered car, and I worked to conserve my tires. I think those points are important: If you're easy on tires and brakes, they'll last longer. If I felt the tires starting to go away, I took it easy for a lap or so. Or I just called the session early. And most of those events were Track Night in Americas, so ambients temps weren't blazing hot. 

The car did come alive on the Falkens, though. It felt more responsive, I could brake later, and performance remained consistent through a session. 

TL;DR: You don't need 200tw or R-comps to track.

I think part of the problem is the wide variety of both vehicle applications and level of track driving. If you have a light/low power car and/or just want to go out and turn laps at like 5/10ths, yeah, pretty much any tire will work. But if you have a heavy/high power car and/or actually want to push limits, those 400TWs are going to vaporize pretty quickly. And like David said the 300TWs are a good middle ground that can tolerate track driving pretty well and probably should get more attention, but you also get to pay for that privilege. Which is more grassroots, one expensive set of tires or two cheap sets that overall last longer? Kind of hard to tell. There's really no "one size fits all" answer, it's up to the individual to assess what they're expecting to get out of it and pick something appropriate. At least in my mind those guides are "buying guides" as in, aimed at someone shopping specifically for track tires, so there's really not much point to including tires that aren't at least somewhat intended specifically for track use.

In reply to Bmsluite :

While the magazine articles cater to the more track focused drivers (it's who the readership is) you will see plenty of us posting up about taking bone stock cars out on track. 

In GRMs defense it's tough to do that as a publication; human nature being what it is people will read "hey I can talk my bone stock family truckster out on track and hammer it". Then when the brakes fade and the tires are shredded they'll screech at the magazine staff....................but if they'd read the 2nd paragraph they would have seen the bit where they said  they had to manage the brakes and tires.

People who've never done track days tend to have misconceptions about it. For 75% of people who do them, track days are about driving your car faster than you can on the road.

Back in the day, I think there was also more of a learning curve when it came to tires as the fast ones often operated in a limited performance window. Brake too hard with Hoosiers, for example, and now you had a flat spot. R-comps, no matter the brand, also had a narrower sweet spot compared to street tires.

Today's 200tw tires, especially the ones aimed at the endurance race crowd, are fairly benign. If anything, I think they're more consistent and predictable than regular street tires. 

One key thing to remember is that novice drivers are usually way harder on brakes and tires than those with more experience. Managing tires and brakes is an advanced skill, and it's tough to devote attention to it when you're learning everything else at the same time. This goes double for a high-power, heavy car like your 350Z.

Do you have aftermarket front control arms? You're probably going to want more camber if you run a stickier tire, both for handling and life.

I'd also suggest going to a square setup, both for more front grip and to make rotating tires possible.

How much street driving do you do? If it's only a few miles per day or you work at home, go with the RT615K+, RS4 or similar. But if you use this car like, well, a car, go with the Michelin or Continental. 

Something else that I didn't expand upon earlier. Once you're looking at 400tw tires, you're pretty much talking all-seasons. Anything falling under the "summer tire" heading will likely feature a treadwear south of 400.

Tom Suddard said:

One key thing to remember is that novice drivers are usually way harder on brakes and tires than those with more experience. Managing tires and brakes is an advanced skill, and it's tough to devote attention to it when you're learning everything else at the same time. This goes double for a high-power, heavy car like your 350Z.

Do you have aftermarket front control arms? You're probably going to want more camber if you run a stickier tire, both for handling and life.

I'd also suggest going to a square setup, both for more front grip and to make rotating tires possible.

How much street driving do you do? If it's only a few miles per day or you work at home, go with the RT615K+, RS4 or similar. But if you use this car like, well, a car, go with the Michelin or Continental. 

I do use the car as a car.  I take it to the lakehouse in the summer, out on date night, and on some road trips.  Sometimes just to go to the grocery as I just like the feel of it.  One of the big reasons I am not yet buying track wheels and tires is that I live in a small Chicago apartment with a one car garage.  I do not have a lot of storage space and I will not suffer my girlfriend to live with car parts in the house.  

The car has adjustable control arms all around.  I am running -2.2 camber and 0.02 toe front with -1.8 camber and 0.04 toe rear.  This setup gives me almost even tire temps accross the face of the tire on track days.  I also have some additional caster up front.  I do not have coilovers.  I ascribe to stiff roll bars and "soft" springs these days so the car sits on OEM springs (which are decently stiff as is) on b6 shocks all around with hotchkis sways front and rear (those set full stiff front and medium rear).  The car is also equipped with a 100% locking OS Giken diff as this car is essentially unmanageable on track with the stock open diff.  

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I will read all those articles.  Thank you for the links.  I think I will stick with the 300 TW tires for this year.  I really think I will learn more on less sticky tires.  If I greaseball these multiple times this year I may upgrade mid summer but will get a whole new set of wheels and track tires.  I may also be more of a novice than I imagine and am just too hard on my tires and just need to learn to manage my weight transfer more efficiently.  I am in not hurry to work my way up to slicks.  

On my old vehicle I had similar sized tire to what you are using so the price differences were not as large.  The first set of firestones I got for this car (255/275 40r18) I paid under $500 (yes, on sale).  Now they cost nearly $900 for the same tire.  It made sense when they were so cheap but their prices have skyrocketed to the point where it no longer makes sense to get them when a premium tire is only a bit more.  

I read one of your articles about yokohama's new V601.  The 280 TW tire.  They seem like they could ge a good choice for me also.  I looked at their specs and they seem very heavy although I see that most 200 TW tires are also heavy.  I assume this can be attributed to the stiffer sidewall reinforcement.  I also wonder if this helps the tires manage heat better.  A tire that weighs 20% should be able to handle 20% more heat as the tire itself is its own heat sink.  If only I could pick a tire engineer's brain for an afternoon.