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ea_sport
ea_sport Reader
6/27/13 9:31 p.m.

I am considering getting either a V8 or a Turbo Miata in a year or so. What are the pros and cons of each other than the extra weight of the V8 which, IMO, more than made up by the sound of the V8? The use will be for fun car, autocross, HPDE and very little daily drive.

Also, I don't have the skills to do all of the works myself so what's a fair market value of an early NA with a V8 (LSX or Ford 5.0)? I need either '89-'90 NA to avoid emission inspections since I live in VA. On the other hand, what's the fair market value of an NA with proper Turbo conversion?

I currently have a '96 with minor mods. It's probably cheaper to buy one that's already had a V8 or Turbo than converting mine considering the labor costs to do the conversion.

Thanks for the input guys.

z31maniac
z31maniac PowerDork
6/27/13 9:45 p.m.

I'd say V8 as long as you can afford to feed it 275/35/15 Hoo-Hoos

I know Keith always talks about how well a Miata with a CTS diff puts down 400+ HP on 225/45s.......but I have trouble believing it based on my own experience with my Mustang GT on 255 Pirellis. Even concrete meant no real traction until 3rd..........and I know I've read him say he could full throttle in 1st in the wet on 225/45s

I'm not saying he's fibbing, just saying I need to experience it before I can believe it.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/27/13 10:12 p.m.

I've had the luck to drive both. In the last 12 hours, even. I own one of each. So here's my take on it - based on what will probably be the top of the market in both cases. Both the V8 swaps and the turbo kits can vary widely in design and execution, but we'll just assume for the sake of comparison that we're talking about equivalent levels of engineering and DIYness. Specifically, FM because that's what I know.

Turbo.
Pros:
- can be built step by step. This is the big one, there's no 180 rwhp $3300 V8 conversion on the market but you can install such a turbo in a weekend. Then you add a different ECU, build the engine, upgrade the turbo and work your way up the power ladder.
- less expensive overall until you get to 300+ whp
- more of a sleeper. V8s can look stock, but they don't sound it.
- pretty much indistinguishable from a stock Miata when driven out of boost
- stock fuel economy when driven out of boost
- very smooth on the highway
- makes turbo noises that will attract fanbois

Cons:
- makes turbo noises that will repel women - can be difficult to find someone to work on one
- depending on power level, you may have to spend some time learning how to tune an ECU
- power delivery can be non-linear, depending on your choice of turbo and power level
- depending on power level, other parts of the drivetrain can be at their limits
- cooling on track is a challenge

V8.
Pros:
- stupendous power and torque with rapid throttle response. They're as good as you hope.
- the noise
- handling is still like a stock Miata
- passing at track days will make you laugh every time
- all of the components are overbuilt for the application, so you never have to worry about shelling a trans
- nobody will ever ask why, V8 Miatas answer some primal need
- surprisingly, it's easier to get people to work on one as it's all just normal domestic V8 stuff.
- loads of aftermarket parts
- cooling on track is better than with the turbo

Cons
- you're always aware that you're sharing a small car with a big engine. This can be a bit draining on longer trips, both from noise and heat
- there is no halfway, you have to fully commit. This means a longer down time and greater up-front cost to make it happen.
- poor fuel economy around town, but usually good on the highway
- XP class autocrossing
- it can be hard to get enough tire under the car, although a good diff and good tires will make up for that.
- depending on the implementation, little ground clearance. Fords have more trouble with this.

I figure the crossover point where the V8 makes more sense is around 300-350 rwhp, assuming you start with a stock Miata and you're doing it all at once. For what you're describing, I'd go with the V8. I HAVE gone with the V8.

On the used market, you'll find the turbo easier to find and less expensive, given equivalent quality but not power levels. V8 Miatas are still relatively rare, turbo Miatas not so much. You'll definitely have to investigate any carefully unless they come with a real pedigree. The value of V8 cars in particular seems to vary widely, while turbo Miatas tend to be valued in a narrower range. Have a look at completed sales on eBay for a good idea of what's out there.

Expect any of them to need a little love, as very few cars are put up for sale in tip-top shape. Be especially careful with cars that have seen several owners (usually in short succession) since the original modifier sold it.

I use a turbo Miata for my commuter and my sometimes track car. It's perfect for that, mild mannered after a long day at work but with the ability to whoosh when required. But on the track, I'm always heading for the V8 keys.

I'll finish with this: http://flyinmiata.com/us/for_sale.php

DavidinDurango
DavidinDurango Reader
6/27/13 10:14 p.m.

My experiences:

turbo: 250-300 rwhp (pending boost) lots of fun but I could never drive it well at the autox. (boost hits. . .BOOM sideways.) It easily went 252 at Bonneville without using full throttle, this was redline in 5th gear.

V8: My car has maybe 225 hp but torque EVERYWHERE. Traction not the problem everyone claims because the torque is manageable. 1st gear one can easily spin the wheels anywhere.

good luck.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/27/13 10:17 p.m.
z31maniac wrote: I'd say V8 as long as you can afford to feed it 275/35/15 Hoo-Hoos I know Keith always talks about how well a Miata with a CTS diff puts down 400+ HP on 225/45s.......but I have trouble believing it based on my own experience with my Mustang GT on 255 Pirellis. Even concrete meant no real traction until 3rd..........and I know I've read him say he could full throttle in 1st in the wet on 225/45s I'm not saying he's fibbing, just saying I need to experience it before I can believe it.

Would you believe Larry Webster of R&T?

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/drives-flyin-miata-mazda-mx5-v8

"Forget, for a moment, the Camaro soundtrack emanating from the pipes. The oddest part is how ferociously this thing catapults out of corners. It's unnerving."

"You expect a V8 Miata to vaporize its rear rubber if you so much as look at the right pedal. Despite the highway's long straights, there was rarely room for more than a moment of full throttle before I had to stand on the brakes and arc into the next bend. With each turn, I got on the power a little earlier, always waiting for that moment when the engine overcame the available grip, the back end stepped out uncontrollably, and whoops! I flew off the road to a terrible doom."

And yeah, armed with Toyo R1Rs, I was able to go full throttle off the line in the wet as long as I didn't break the tires loose on launch. I don't have any wet video, but here's a full throttle start in the dry. The only time I lost traction is when the wheels spun over a crest at 100 mph...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFMp4-3rUQs

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/27/13 10:27 p.m.

I will vouch for the Targa Car having ridiculous amounts of traction.

On the more extreme side of things, the infamous "MNIVET" 600whp+ turbo LS1 NB Miata seems to dead hook 3rd gear without a problem, and often 2nd gear.

On 225/45-15s.

My own ~250whp turbo Miata has to be driven in an EXTREMELY stupid manner to break the tires loose in any gear. This is on 215/40-17s, and just Parada Spec IIs at that. It's strange. And frankly, a bit disappointing.

clownkiller
clownkiller Reader
6/27/13 10:38 p.m.

I'm running a 1.8 with a T25 at 12lbs of boost. 200hp ish. It is a blast to drive. I just bought a stock Miata and can't believe how slow the car is. It would be hard to imagine an extra 300 hp with the LSx transplant over a stock car. The LSx would be a track MONSTER.

clownkiller
clownkiller Reader
6/27/13 10:48 p.m.

Mmmmm......LSx Miata from FM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTPHytxPngk

poopshovel
poopshovel MegaDork
6/27/13 10:55 p.m.
clownkiller wrote: I'm running a 1.8 with a T25 at 12lbs of boost. 200hp ish. It is a blast to drive. I just bought a stock Miata and can't believe how slow the car is. It would be hard to imagine an extra 300 hp with the LSx transplant over a stock car. The LSx would be a track MONSTER.

I can attest to this. I've always berkeleying hated Miatas. Throw some boooosts on that bitch, and it suddenly creates huge grins & giggles. Clownkillerwayne is all in for less than $2k in this car by the way. Looks good, handles good, butt-dyno says low 13/high 12 car. Smells like filthy gay canexican sex, but whaddaya want for $2k?

Jaynen
Jaynen Dork
6/27/13 11:26 p.m.

My biggest issue with a v8 miata is I would be tempted to give Keith a chance to build me a V8 RX-8 instead or convert mine to an exocet before chasing that kind of power. And well I am sure some people would like it but I don't really want 350-400hp in the car once it only weighs 1400lbs

However, because I like torque and on track simplicity I would be tempted to go swap in general over boost. I also am guessing a swapped car done well will retain a lot more value than a turbo car

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/27/13 11:41 p.m.

I have a tendency to always end up babbling like a born-again convert when it comes to V8 Miatas. But they really are special.

Still, don't discount the turbos. There are a lot of turbo Miatas out there, and that's because they do work well. I've had a lot of fun in mine, ranging from road trips to autocrossing to track days. They're a little more approachable than the V8s, simply due to the fact that they tend to have less power and are less overt about having that power. My dad is terrified of the V8 cars because he knows their potential and he's constantly reminded of it by the noise, but he'll happily drive my turbo car without any concern at all.

The biggest problem with buying used is that very few good V8 conversions seem to show up on the market. Lots of "90% finished" projects, and we know how that usually works. Lots of builds with questionable aesthetics or slap-dash construction. The high quality ones seem to stay with their builders. Turbo Miatas, however, do seem to see more turnover. Sure, there are still the "run away!" cars. But the ease of entry and the availability of well-developed kits means that there's a higher percentage of good 'uns on the market.

z31maniac
z31maniac PowerDork
6/27/13 11:46 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote:
z31maniac wrote: I'd say V8 as long as you can afford to feed it 275/35/15 Hoo-Hoos I know Keith always talks about how well a Miata with a CTS diff puts down 400+ HP on 225/45s.......but I have trouble believing it based on my own experience with my Mustang GT on 255 Pirellis. Even concrete meant no real traction until 3rd..........and I know I've read him say he could full throttle in 1st in the wet on 225/45s I'm not saying he's fibbing, just saying I need to experience it before I can believe it.
Would you believe Larry Webster of R&T? http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/first-drives/drives-flyin-miata-mazda-mx5-v8 "Forget, for a moment, the Camaro soundtrack emanating from the pipes. The oddest part is how ferociously this thing catapults out of corners. It's unnerving." "You expect a V8 Miata to vaporize its rear rubber if you so much as look at the right pedal. Despite the highway's long straights, there was rarely room for more than a moment of full throttle before I had to stand on the brakes and arc into the next bend. With each turn, I got on the power a little earlier, always waiting for that moment when the engine overcame the available grip, the back end stepped out uncontrollably, and whoops! I flew off the road to a terrible doom." And yeah, armed with Toyo R1Rs, I was able to go full throttle off the line in the wet as long as I didn't break the tires loose on launch. I don't have any wet video, but here's a full throttle start in the dry. The only time I lost traction is when the wheels spun over a crest at 100 mph... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFMp4-3rUQs

I've read that review, again, my own experience with high HP cars, I'd need to experience it to believe it.

I couldn't use full throttle in a car with less HP until 3rd gear, I just find it hard to believe a lighter car, with less rubber, puts down the power THAT well. I'd love to be proven wrong.

But I have a nearly 500 HP car on 225s putting down full lower, first gear power, in even damp conditions, even 2nd or 3rd is hard to believe.

My 235whp e30 on sticky 235s I remember more than one occasion 3rd gear throttle roll ons kicking the car sideways in third gear in slightly damp conditions.

Is the CTS diff really filled with pixie dust?

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/27/13 11:51 p.m.

As a data point about as relevant as an e30, my mx6 will dead hook 3rd. That's a 300whp+ fwd macstrut dinosaur.

I've ridden In the Targa Miata. What Keith says about that car is true in terms of traction.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/27/13 11:53 p.m.

The first time I drove a V8 on track, it was the way it came off corners that surprised me. I expected the acceleration down the straights, I did not expect the traction. The OS Giken diff for the Miata feels similar, actually.

The lighter car might be less likely to spin the tires than a heavy one - it's easier to accelerate the car, even if there is less weight on the tires

The Targa Miata doesn't have the bottom end torque of the LS3s, I'll admit. It's not as ferocious, and at the Targa it was probably laying down about 350-375 hp at the wheels. Still, you can see the video. I'll look to see if I have a wet one, I might.

Having Elvis down at sea level did make me recalibrate a bit due to the extra power available. But when I tried to do a burnout shot for the photographer for R&T, I almost ran him down because the car just launched instead of smoking the tires. I wasn't man enough to try sideways driving on the little 1 lane road we were using, either, the limits were just too high. Making cars stick is part of what we do.

Warren v
Warren v Reader
6/28/13 5:39 a.m.

Keith is right about lighter cars having more grip relative to the normal force. Performance tires generate grip through different mechanisms as load increases. The most efficient method is adhesion through the Van der Waals force. To generate that grip, you just need to press the contact patch into the ground (in the micro sense). Once your little pits and valleys are keyed in, you're not going to get much more adhesion. Grip after that comes from mechanical keying to the road surface and another thing called bulk deformation hysteresis, which have limits and are less efficient for the normal loading. I have driven a 398 lb car capable of a sustained 1.8g with no aero (actually some lift), while 3000 lb racecars with the best slicks can be expected to pull about 1.3-1.4 without aero. I have seen Michelin racing's tyre dyno data, it really is shocking how much grip you have when the weight goes down. In high-school-physics terms, the friction coefficent goes up as the weight goes down. (Please realize that "friction coefficients" are a criminally simplified term in the world of non-linear tire dynamics).

While it may seem contradictory to my argument above, the Miata also has better weight transfer characteristics and static balance than a Mustang. It's going to put more of it's weight on the driven tires. Without drivers, the GT500 is 57.5% front, while a turbo or LSx Miata is around 52.5-54% (stock Miatas are around 52.5%). Since the wheelbase is shorter on the Miata compared to the CG height, the Miata will put a larger proportion of its weight on the rear tires. Any weight still on the front tires can't help you accelerate, and Mustangs leave a lot. Static weight balance is very important, since it increases your ability to induce weight transfer and overall grip. You want something between ~51 to ~45% front weight to maximize your weight transfer characteristics without compromising handling. Obviously this changes with CG height, wheelbase, diff characteristics, and the ability to accelerate harder, which is why you see some high power nose-heavy cars lift the fronts at the strip. On a road course, more rear bias will give you more accelerative traction (up to a point). The downside is fundamental instability and other characteristics that need to be dialed out. If you design the suspension for it, you can run 60% rear weight and still maintain forgiving handling characteristics. Once you get past that, you end up in P-Car Widowmaker territory, which can be faster for very experienced drivers at the expense of predictable-to-the-layman handling.

Another thing that hasn't been discussed is suspension kinematics and geometry. Dampers can make a huge difference. Also, anti-squat is something that affects traction on imperfect surfaces and with transient loads. Basically, it means that the force of acceleration is transmitted through the suspension links themselves rather than the coilover. Most cars have a small bit of anti-squat, since it can be annoying to have the nose pitch up when you get on the gas. The downside is in compliance. When you transmit force through the suspension links, the effective spring rate is dictated by your suspension bushings. Medium-frequency vibrations are not absorbed as well as if they were routed through the shock. The contact patch of the tire is less "cusioned" when you have a lot of anti-squat, but the rear end won't sit down as much with the same springrate.

Mustangs have a lot of anti-squat (~60%). Miatas were never designed for power, so they have very little. Again, this means the Miata resolves a lot of the vertical acceleration load through the coilover rather than the suspension arms and bushings. In general, on road course tires and street tires, traction is maintained when you are relatively gentle with the contact patch. Think of the tire as a big spring dragging across the ground; when you change accelerations, you want to keep it from vibrating as much as possible. (That said, the forefront of tire tech today actually involves controlling and inducing vibration, but we'll ignore that). Another big factor is unsprung mass. Mustangs have a ton in the rear, including the diff. Miatas have less, so the suspension can do a better job at keeping the tires happy. Ignoring the entire IRS vs live axle kinematic comparison, you won't be able to compare accelerative traction between a V8 Miata and V8 Mustang just due to the anti-squat differences.

Why do cars come with anti-squat? To reduce the amount of squat during acceleration, and in the case of racecars, keep the aero trimmed level. It's not for overall grip, except when used to keep the rears off the bumpstops. While the grip is less, a lot of anti-squat can make a car "feel" like it has more traction. You'll see this in autojournals, the testers will champion anti-squat and anti-dive as "feeling" planted and fast. While a proper amount of antis is important in real racecars, that's mainly for aerodymanic performance. For mechanical grip, you want a bit more movement. Go flog around an Elise and tell me it handles poorly despite its body motion. :) Antis, along with tons of rebound damping, are the bodybuilding-Synthol of street car handling.

Some drag racers will contest because 100%-120% anti-squat is fastest on the dragstrip. Drag tires are different and work to cushion the contact patch themselves, so applying a great shock to the tires (compared to radial road course tires) during launch is ideal. It loads up the tires faster, since they act as a radial spring. This is one of the big reasons why drag racers prefer solid axles, it's easy to get 100%+ anti-squat with a four-link setup. While loading up a drag radial is important at launch, it is worth mentioning that a lot of anti-dive can cause traction issues down the strip. It's only useful for launching on very compliant drag tires.

TLDR: light cars can pull harder than heavier cars, especially if they have forgiving suspension geometry. This is why Atom 500s can do 0-60 in the low 2 second range with 245 rears. (Now you might understand my annoyance when we have customers wanting to put 335s on Exocets, which have the same rear weight loading under acceleration as an Atom 500.)

ZOO
ZOO SuperDork
6/28/13 6:30 a.m.

In reply to Warren v:

Wow -- thank you for taking the time to share such an informative and engaging post. So it is not solely about the tires . . .

Warren v
Warren v Reader
6/28/13 6:44 a.m.
ZOO wrote: In reply to Warren v: Wow -- thank you for taking the time to share such an informative and engaging post. So it is not solely about the tires . . .

Rest assured, it's all about the tires. The important thing is making sure that the car can take advantage of them.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg UltimaDork
6/28/13 7:05 a.m.
Warren v wrote:
ZOO wrote: In reply to Warren v: Wow -- thank you for taking the time to share such an informative and engaging post. So it is not solely about the tires . . .
Rest assured, it's all about the tires. The important thing is making sure that the car can take advantage of them.

The most QFT ever

z31maniac
z31maniac PowerDork
6/28/13 7:19 a.m.
Warren v wrote:
ZOO wrote: In reply to Warren v: Wow -- thank you for taking the time to share such an informative and engaging post. So it is not solely about the tires . . .
Rest assured, it's all about the tires. The important thing is making sure that the car can take advantage of them.

Yes, thank you for the great post!

And yours as well Keith, the bit about the lighter car being easier to accelerate, hadn't considered it like that!

pinchvalve
pinchvalve UltimaDork
6/28/13 7:55 a.m.

People posted after Keith from FM. That's funny.

Warren v
Warren v Reader
6/28/13 8:04 a.m.
pinchvalve wrote: People posted after Keith from FM. That's funny.

Last week, someone at a local speedshop casually accused Keith of having a Canadian accent. If that's true, I can't blame anyone for questioning his claims.

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/28/13 9:18 a.m.

I saw Keith in person yesterday. He most certainly has a Canadian accent. What's strange is that it seems to be contagious. I really didn't remember Brandon having a Canadian accent 2 years ago, but he seems to have one now.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/28/13 9:26 a.m.

Actually, Brandon's a nice guy who's polite. Most people confuse that with a Canadian accent.

yamaha
yamaha UberDork
6/28/13 9:40 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Eh?

ea_sport
ea_sport Reader
6/30/13 11:12 p.m.

Wow...some excellent..excellent input...I guess the moral of the story is get a well done V8 conversion, some great suspension and sticky tires to get all those power to the street.. The nex question is what is the fair price/range of prices of an early NA Miata with a well done V8 conversion? How can you tell a good conversion job vs. a bad one? How much typically a conversion to V8 cost, labor and parts including the engine? Can a V8 conversion pass Emission inspection? I live in VA so bi-annual emission inspection is required hence the thought of getting an early NA to avoid emission inspection for historic (read: more than 25 year old) car...

Thanks all...

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