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valiant171
valiant171 New Reader
10/18/10 2:54 p.m.

This is just something I have been playing with in my head...

Just like you, I love 5 speeds and light weight... and old muscle but nary the twain meets.

It is virtually umpossible to find a decent 4 speed around here and all the junk to make my car a manual for less than grand, I want 3 pedals!

Sure I love my LA mopars but to get a 4 or 5 speed you have to spend money this guy does not have.

So I got to thinking why not swap the whole guts from a modern car in my Demon. It seems that there are quite a few 5 series around here with a stick for less than $1500. The little bit of research I have done shows about 200 ish(honestly that is what most 440's make) horsepower and a slick shifting 5 speed.

So learn me what to look for please so I can keep this lust going

Btw, Major fabbing I can do but precision machining not so much. and the car in question

PS122
PS122 Reader
10/18/10 3:09 p.m.

What about the 5-spd is in the late 90s/early 00s Dakotas? I see Dakotas around cheap (not many V8/5-spds though). Not exactly BMW-smooth but an option anyway...

Not that I want to discourage you from the BMW drivetrain... I think that would be really cool. (Though only us grm'ers would "get it").

ArthurDent
ArthurDent Reader
10/18/10 3:11 p.m.

Cool idea but if you plan to sell any time soon I think your resale value would suffer.

A HO inline six out of a Jeep with a 5spd would be cool too. That had what a 190hp with good torque.

valiant171
valiant171 New Reader
10/18/10 3:14 p.m.

That 5 speed is pretty weak and really takes a hacking to the body but given my needs, which are minimal for now, (I just want it to drive it) may work...

tuna55
tuna55 Dork
10/18/10 6:25 p.m.

That sounds like a neat idea, actually, and I am a V8 man. For the price, it isn't really a bad option. If the engine/transmission is something you know how to work with, and on, then game on!

Twin_Cam
Twin_Cam Dork
10/18/10 6:28 p.m.

Wasn't there a '67ish Mustang kicking around somewhere with an RB26TT in it? An RB26 is way more rare (and/or expensive) than the Bimmer engine you're looking for, but still, that's what it reminded me of.

psteav
psteav Reader
10/18/10 6:32 p.m.
PS122 wrote: What about the 5-spd is in the late 90s/early 00s Dakotas? I see Dakotas around cheap (not many V8/5-spds though). Not exactly BMW-smooth but an option anyway... Not that I want to discourage you from the BMW drivetrain... I think that would be really cool. (Though only us grm'ers would "get it").

This. You want the AX-15, offered in 94-up Dakotas and Rams. Also in 4.0 Jeeps, but the bellhousing pattern is wrong. Anything with a 3.9 or 5.2 Magnum will have the proper bellhousing (don't believe they ever made a 5.9 five-speed). Pretty weak is a relative term, as well. They held up behind the 5.2 (230 hp/ 300 tq), which is a lot more than you'll get out of that BMW motor.

If you're not happy with the shift quality of the AX-15 (it's not specacular), you can put in an R-154 from an 86.5-92 Supra Turbo. This was designed as part of a joint venture between Jeep and Aisin Warner. It's bulletproof, and any bellhousing from an AX-15 should bolt up, but the input shaft will need to be machine and you'll have to figure out a clutch.

I'm planning on putting a 5.9 Magnum with an R-154 behind it in my '73 Duster. Right now I'm just trying to figure out what it would take to put in a hydraulic clutch setup to replace that wonky Z-bar Chrysler used.

FWIW, I think the BMW idea is a neat one, but if you're worried about the extra work involved in swapping in a manual that's designed to go behind the engine already in your car, you're going to be in for a rude awakening putting an engine that was never designed to go there into a car. A-bodies have a pretty narrow transmission tunnel, and a fairly narrow engine bay as well. I don't know what you'd have to do regarding an oil pan/radiator/mounts/etc.

Marty!
Marty! Dork
10/18/10 6:35 p.m.
Twin_Cam wrote: Wasn't there a '67ish Mustang kicking around somewhere with an RB26TT in it? An RB26 is way more rare (and/or expensive) than the Bimmer engine you're looking for, but still, that's what it reminded me of.

Yeah, it was in FnF 4.

RossD
RossD Dork
10/18/10 6:41 p.m.

I'm with psteav; put a Jeep 4.0 HO in there with a supra's 5 speed.

WilberM3
WilberM3 Reader
10/18/10 6:57 p.m.

i love the idea of a big six m30 (535i) in there. theyre pretty damn stout engines too, and they respond well to boost if youre so inclined. or find one of the rare 745i factory turbo'd engines.

if you like the 24-valve engines (2.5L m50) you have the 525i or the 325i oil pan options that might help your swap as 525i's sump is in front and e36 325i sump is in the rear. plus its easy to make any of the bigger m50/s50 engines fit where you already would have the smaller displacement donor.

a v8 5 series (530i or 540i) could be pretty cool too, but its probably going to be harder to find a worthy donor with a manual.

Platinum90
Platinum90 SuperDork
10/18/10 7:06 p.m.
Marty! wrote:
Twin_Cam wrote: Wasn't there a '67ish Mustang kicking around somewhere with an RB26TT in it? An RB26 is way more rare (and/or expensive) than the Bimmer engine you're looking for, but still, that's what it reminded me of.
Yeah, it was in FnF 4.

wrong. it was FnF3 TD...get your crappy movies right!

Appleseed
Appleseed SuperDork
10/18/10 9:18 p.m.

If you want to keep it Mopar, I'd love to see a Hemi 6 Pack in a non Valiant Charger.

RoosterSauce
RoosterSauce New Reader
10/18/10 10:05 p.m.

Get two 13B's and put them together.

Or how about a Jag V12? BMW has a V12, too, but... not sure if you can do a manual trans with one of those

Subaru H6. Pretty sure you can hook a 5-speed up to one of those. Might as well go for AWD while you're at it.

MrBenjamonkey
MrBenjamonkey Reader
10/19/10 3:52 a.m.

What would be the goal of this project? Wouldn't you just be making a bad handling car with suspect brakes into a bad handling car with suspect brakes and a small displacement engine?

It sounds cool, I'm just not sure I see the endgame.

JtspellS
JtspellS Reader
10/19/10 4:47 a.m.
RoosterSauce wrote: Get two 13B's and put them together. Or how about a Jag V12? BMW has a V12, too, but... not sure if you can do a manual trans with one of those Subaru H6. Pretty sure you can hook a 5-speed up to one of those. Might as well go for AWD while you're at it.

They say a Rotary can go in anything........

Rob_Mopar
Rob_Mopar Reader
10/19/10 7:14 a.m.

Websense is blocking the photo, so I'll have to wait until I get home to check it out.

As a dyed in the wool Mopar guy I can't encourage a BMW swap into a Demon. But as Arthur pointed out you won't get anything for it if you go to sell it. You are building an orphan. Mopar guys will run away from it and BMW guys probably will too. I came home from the hospital almost 39 years ago in my dad's '71 Demon so I have a soft spot for them.

I reject your premise that most 440's are making 200 HP. I don't know who you've been hanging with, but it's the wrong crowd. And you know what happens when you hag out with the wrong crowds. Now with that out of the way...

For low-buck 5-speed swaps into an A-body go hang out at SlantSix.org for a while. There are several guys there who have done very successful low-buck junkyard swaps.

The combo a buddy of mine was looking into was to use the early 3.9 V6 bell housing/flywheel/hydraulic clutch setup from an '80's Dakota. Those are the ones setup for the AX15. The AX15 is too weak for a V8. The NV3500 is the 5-speed Chrysler put behind the V8 Dakotas. It's really too big and not a sporty set of gears in there.

Going back to the AX15 bell, the Supra 5-speed is supposed to bolt up to that. I think the swap required a custom clutch made, but it wasn't anything exotic. Just needed to be the correct diameter for the Mopar flywheel and the right spline for the Toyota input shaft.

There are other guys that have done T5 swaps into A-bodies. I don't remember all the details on those. I think one of the slant guys put one in an early A and has had it on the road for several years. He was very happy with the combo.

My '68 Barracuda is going from the 727 automatic to a 5-speed. No it isn't cheap. Yes I am going aftermarket. I'm working with Keisler on one of his new T45 based kits. I have some info on that in a Barracuda update under my profile's garage.

paanta
paanta New Reader
10/19/10 8:33 a.m.

I've got an E34 535i 5-speed and it's maybe the best all-round BMW ever made. Last of the old-school drivetrains (Getrag 260/6 + M30B35) coupled with a modern body. It's perfect for my needs.

But here? No. Getting more from it than what's possible with a chip (~200 whp, maybe) costs an arm and a leg. Engine performance parts are expensive and don't get you what they do with an American V8. Plus, it's a heavy berkeleyer. It weighs as much as the BMW V8s and probably more than a lot of modern American ones. It's LONG and prone to overheating, which is a bad combo unless you like doing head work. Oh, and even in perfect running condition it gets pretty rotten fuel economy compared to modern BMW drivetrains.

If you want to go BMW for the novelty, go with the M50 and turbo it, use S50 parts, or whatever. Lots more performance options there, much more modern tuner friendly design, lots more support from the 3-series folks and so on.

The ONLY thing the M30 has going for it here is that most junkyards give them away because all M30 powered cars rust away before the engine gives out.

grimmelshanks
grimmelshanks HalfDork
10/19/10 8:52 a.m.

i wholely support the idea of the bm-duster but considering the kind of people i have encountered at mopar get togethers and such, this may be a good way to find yourself hanging from a tree

96DXCivic
96DXCivic SuperDork
10/19/10 9:00 a.m.

I gotta be honest I really don't get it. It is a muscle car. It needs a big engine. Hey didn't the BMW V12s have manuals?

TOZOVR
TOZOVR Reader
10/19/10 9:32 a.m.

Go 2 JZ and NAWWWWWS

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
10/19/10 9:33 a.m.

A BMW six does provide an interesting "what if Chrysler kept developing the slant six?" possible answer, and a Demon is lighter than a 535, but beyond that doesn't make too much sense. Like others have pointed out, it's going to be a tough car to resell. If you are going to put a BMW engine in it, I'd say it's a "go big or go home" project - don't settle for less than a V12. The amount of work is nearly the same for any of the BMW engines.

A junkyard 5 speed swap on a small block Mopar would be a lot simpler and a lot easier to resell.

pres589
pres589 HalfDork
10/19/10 9:35 a.m.

Drivetrain from a 2WD full sized truck. V8 with FI & electronic everything, 4-speed auto, look into whatever makes a 'mild shift kit' for these things and add a good trans cooler and aftermarket radiator. Probably do the whole thing for $1500 or so.

The other option is to somehow find a good BMW 635 with a manual trans and just drive that. If it makes you feel better there are probably Demon decals that will fit on the trunk lid.

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Reader
10/19/10 9:46 a.m.

if the point is a light weight engine and a manual trans...... the answer is still LSX! (and it will be faster to help you escape the angry mopar fans!)

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
10/19/10 10:36 a.m.

The M88/3 BMW 6 is the right answer. It was offered in the orig. M6 and the E28 M5 (as the S38). Its a DOHC 24V Solid Lifter Valvetrain w/ Individual Throttle Bodies. Made from 1988-1996. The last iteration ( Used in E34 M5) was 332lbs at 3.8L making 340bhp. It makes and AWESOME noise at full song. They are not cheap to buy or build.

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Reader
10/19/10 11:36 a.m.

if there is one thing bmw does well, it is make a nice looking engine compartment!

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