In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
As I understand it, there is a very different range...
356's range from $75-100K.
A 70's 911s may start at $35K or so, but the more desirable models and years could be well over $1 million. Seems like a good average is about $150K (but I am definitely NOT knowledgeable in this).
Anyone know more than me on this? I'd like to learn.
In reply to frenchyd :
I have no problem financing an appreciating asset and put the cash I'd spend on it to work making more money. You have to consider the opportunity cost of spending large amounts of cash.
I'm not saying overleverage yourself but a little can go a long way.
People inadvertently do this with home ownership, finance (in most cases) an appreciating asset, which they sell later and for many see the largest windfall of their life.
frenchyd said:Tom1200 said:My problem isn't deciding..........it's paying. I could buy a 356 or pay off my house. The mortgage will be gone soon
A Fiat 124 or Alfa spider would be a good choice and they aren't expensive.
The prudent thing to do is always pay off your bills ( mortgage) then save up enough to pay cash for the classic.
The flaw with that logical approach is you wind up past the age where you can have fun before you have any fun. Then there is that nasty old inflation. The point where collector cars stop depreciating and start appreciating.Now you're chasing a price. With plenty of other things to do with your money. The house needs updating and there is a vacation that beckons. You can always fatten your retirement account and suddenly your in a senior citizen's retirement community with nothing to remember but a well balanced spread sheet.
I've been racing for 35 years, pretty sure I've made lots of memories.
Even if I made 100K on an appreciating classic it wouldn't result in a lifestyle change..........I'd rather be debt free.
I'm just trying to determine how old I feel from reading this. When y'all say "classic," I picture this:
Mrs. preach has commented a number of times now that my recent purchase comes up on Hagarty's upcoming list the next year.
Luck or good taste? I don't know.
I believe that the term "classic" has an open definition. There are instant classics, there are grown into classics, there are classics due to the fact that previous models are considered classics.
Toyota Tacoma-instant classic due to Top Gear and the awesomeness of the original Pick-up/Hi-lux.
Porsche 911- Even a new one is an instant classic.
Opel GT- Probably a grown into classic. Not really a great car, but stunning looks.
Audi TT- Grown and Instant in my opinion. Mk1s made Hagarty's list a couple years ago. Great looks, respectable performance. Find a mk1 without the rear lip spoiler and you have a unicorn, not one you'd want to drive fast though.
Honda s2000-instant.
Miata- instant.
Porsche 914-Tooth and clawed into grown into.
I could go on.
Opti said:In reply to frenchyd :
I have no problem financing an appreciating asset and put the cash I'd spend on it to work making more money. You have to consider the opportunity cost of spending large amounts of cash.
I'm not saying overleverage yourself but a little can go a long way.
People inadvertently do this with home ownership, finance (in most cases) an appreciating asset, which they sell later and for many see the largest windfall of their life.
That's the trick. If the financed cost of an appreciating asset is below its appreciation it's a good deal. ( assuming you have a reasonable expectation of being able to retain the payments for the foreseeable future).
The trouble with race cars is you have to assume it will be destroyed while a collector car can be insured cheap enough that the risk of loss is minimal.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:I'm just trying to determine how old I feel from reading this. When y'all say "classic," I picture this:
I was thinking the first generation regular Mustangs ought to have a place here too - they still carry a massive nostalgia factor but have a much lower buy in than a Shelby, and even better parts availability. Some of the options here looked like they'd only make sense as a first classic for a financial advisor with very well-heeled clients. I would have expected an article on first classics to focus on someone who wasn't ready to pony up a lot of money and didn't have great mechanical skills.
I think that list is nuts, but I also assume Classic Motorsports knows their reader demographic ain't us. The advice itself is good, the car selection is just all over the map.
frenchyd said:Opti said:In reply to frenchyd :
I have no problem financing an appreciating asset and put the cash I'd spend on it to work making more money. You have to consider the opportunity cost of spending large amounts of cash.
I'm not saying overleverage yourself but a little can go a long way.
People inadvertently do this with home ownership, finance (in most cases) an appreciating asset, which they sell later and for many see the largest windfall of their life.
That's the trick. If the financed cost of an appreciating asset is below its appreciation it's a good deal. ( assuming you have a reasonable expectation of being able to retain the payments for the foreseeable future).
The trouble with race cars is you have to assume it will be destroyed while a collector car can be insured cheap enough that the risk of loss is minimal.
The trouble with cars is the ongoing cost of ownership. It's appreciation has to cover storage costs, maintenance, and insurance. Very tricky to pick a car capable of that for more than just a few lucky years. Think of the garage space it uses, extra taxes on a larger property, etc. And then you want to beat ~8% market gains if you simply picked ETFs and let it ride... Cars are a passion, and occasionally you get lucky
In reply to mr2peak :
I'm sure a spreadsheet dude can also tell you the cost of living isn't worth it. But we all just go along and keep trying.
The problem with the spread sheet is there is no point to enter that beautiful day when the pleasure of the ride is just so rewarding. When an attractive young lady watches you drive by with her mouth slightly open. Or you impress someone with your choice. The pleasure you get washing and waxing on a nice Sunday afternoon. Leaving a gleaming car sitting in your driveway.
You're right it's rare to turn a profit in car ownership unless that's your job. In which case you deny yourself all those pleasures.
In reply to frenchyd :
As you know I'm a spreadsheet guy; since 1989 when I switched from racing bikes to cars I've spent a shade over $77,000 on racing. This includes every dime from tires to fuel including the cost of insurance, registration maintenance of the tow vehicles and trailer. So for about $50 a week I get to go to 6-10 autocrosses and 6 track events a year. I can justify that.
I keep track of every dime on cars because at some point they will pass your personal threshold of pain if you don't.
I've been blessed in being able to drive some phenomenal cars and I will tell you they are not any more fun to drive than a bone stock MR2 or Miata................they may be better sensory experience but they are not more fun.
The best bang for the buck I ever got as a car guy was joining the SCCA and VARA (vintage racing); seen and done more than I ever dreamed possible.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I guess we have a different approach. When I started racing, I used every cent a 14 year old could earn and calculated to the penny what it would cost. ( deciding to forego getting it registered and licensed because I couldn't spend that money and get to the track that weekend. So I followed a few other racers to the track some of which had a license some didn't. But we got away with it for the whole season. I guess a big hand painted number on the side and trunk was enough for the police we went past.
Same with SCCA racing. I was in the Navy and if I spent too much I still got my meals and a place to sleep. Once I was married I paid the bills first groceries etc. and then cash left over became my budget. Oh, on a few occasions I loaded up a credit card. But made sure it was quickly paid off.
Unlike most people my income fluctuated. A big commission check paid off credit cards. Plus allowed some race stuff.
Then people noticed how well I was doing and how nice the cars looked and I started working on the side for others. That meant almost all my racing was done out of others pockets. Even 10 day long events like Bahama's Vintage races was done out of their Pockets. I went to them with $500 cash and typically returned with $200-300 ( most of that was spent on gifts for the kids).
I started to keep a box of receipts for each car I did for myself but when the offers came in for them I'd just use the money to get nicer tools and etc So in effect racing didn't cost or earn much .
I'm sure less than going to a football game or round of golf
In reply to frenchyd :
We're actually not that far off; I wheeled and dealed on parts to help pay for racing. I ran used tires for probably 20 years. I've coached / instructed as a way to offset costs as well as getting a chance to do some racing in someone else's car.
So coming back to the topic and the car guide: I could put some sweat equity into a car but at 59 years old I find I'd much rather drive them than work on them. I also find that an MG TD would likely bring as much joy as a 356 would. Sure I could sell a few things but I'd still have to finance at least half the purchase. I don't like debt.
I'm currently considering buying a classic in the spring (if I don't buy a new dirt bike) on my list are 914s, Model A, Beetle or a 65 Ford Galaxy................of course given my ever changing wants I might just buy a Formula Ford or air cooled Super Vee......if I don't buy a nicer Formula 500 then the one I currently race.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Interesting you put the Model A on that list.
I have one, and don't even think of it for a list like this. Of course it IS a classic, but it's never mentioned when people are talking about classics.
Everything about the driving experience is completely foreign to more modern vehicles (including the sound, and the speed), put that's all part of what makes it wonderful.
Tom1200 said:In reply to frenchyd :
We're actually not that far off; I wheeled and dealed on parts to help pay for racing. I ran used tires for probably 20 years. I've coached / instructed as a way to offset costs as well as getting a chance to do some racing in someone else's car.
So coming back to the topic and the car guide: I could put some sweat equity into a car but at 59 years old I find I'd much rather drive them than work on them. I also find that an MG TD would likely bring as much joy as a 356 would. Sure I could sell a few things but I'd still have to finance at least half the purchase. I don't like debt.
I'm currently considering buying a classic in the spring (if I don't buy a new dirt bike) on my list are 914s, Model A, Beetle or a 65 Ford Galaxy................of course given my ever changing wants I might just buy a Formula Ford or air cooled Super Vee......if I don't buy a nicer Formula 500 then the one I currently race.
What surprises me is how short lived cars like a Model A or MGTD are.
Camshafts for example. Even careful about using ZDDP it's hard to get much over 20,000 miles out of a camshaft before there is measurable wear in them.
On a model A people don't use them enough for it to matter. Plus they seem OK with the loss of power. On a MGT series where it's become more and more common to replace them with roller camshafts. Or sell it on and let the next owner deal with it. Not just camshaft wear but also cylinder wear. 30-35,000 miles and rings need replacement. Plus the valves need work.
As far as Joy? The MG crowd seem to be more about fun, socializing, tight racing, etc. while the Porsche people take it more serious. Just my opinion.
I raced with used tires long past their sticky wear out point. My rule was if it would pass tech I'd go. Instead of being at the front of the pack I'd be in the middle, sliding around like a fool but smiling just the same. Because the straights got shorter with hard tires, I'd drop the quick change in an attempt to trade acceleration for top speed but I'd wind up smoking the tires instead of accelerating. That plus hard tires didn't allow me to stop as fast so I'd be on the brakes earlier and longer.
Unlike you, I take great pleasure in fabricating stuff and building engines. I've wanted my MGuar , or a Straight 8 Buick "Indy" car
In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
A Model A is one of the few classics my wife and I agree on. I also live 2 miles from the edge of town and a road that leads to a Lake Mead National Rec Area. The official speed limit on that road is 50 mph, so a Model A would make a fun drive.
In reply to frenchyd :
I enjoy some stuff, like fabricating the engine cowl on the Formula 500 and porting heads but really big jobs are not for me. I'm the tootsie pop owl, in that I lack patience.
An MG TD would be fun on my local lake road.
Why not a 914 or a Karmann Ghia instead of a 356 or a 911. Or an X/19 or 124 Spyder instead of an Alfa. Looks like MGBs are still affordable as are Spitfires instead of a Jaguar. There are lots of Camaros and Mustangs out there that could be had for a lot less than a Shelby.
Why break the bank?
In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :
I tend to agree. I know I have a dollar limit in my head and I'd go with whatever fun car fits that.
Tom1200 said:In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :
A Model A is one of the few classics my wife and I agree on. I also live 2 miles from the edge of town and a road that leads to a Lake Mead National Rec Area. The official speed limit on that road is 50 mph, so a Model A would make a fun drive.
Before I owned a Model A, I thought a street rod version would be awesome. Good power for me, nice interior and AC for my wife.
But now that I own one, I really don't want more power, or a nicer interior. There is something really satisfying and transformative about the driving experience. The chugging of the engine, the slower pace, you get to see everything, wave at people, and laugh.
Even when my wife and I are having a rough patch, a trip in the Model A seems to fix everything.
Driving a Model A is a complete experience unto itself. It doesn't matter if the car can't handle corners, or accelerate, or stop easily. It's just man, nature, and machine. It feels good!
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