I suspect that "not being rude" is a societal norm that the sales people are using to their advantage.
Had someone try to use it on me during a house closing, actually. My lender had some numbers that didn't match what we'd discussed and wasn't too worried about it, assuming I wouldn't make too much of a fuss in front of other people. The relationship was already, hmm, poor so I got up and walked out. Lemme tell you, THAT gets people moving in a way that simply talking to them will not.
One thing to watch for with smaller used dealers is whether or not the dealer has the title in their possession.
I recently ran into this when helping my sister shop for a replacement for her totaled Sportage.
This was a miss on our part, and it wasn't until the dealer had taken payment and the paperwork for the RMV/insurance was completed and ready to process that they shared that they didn't have the title in hand.
The auction they had bought the car from still had the title, and while they promised to have the title the next day, it didn't happen. After two days of excuses she cancelled the deal and immediately picked up and cashed their refund check.
In reply to No Time :
The 911 that I was housing temporarily was purchased from MO, and I found in the paperwork that there is some very specific legislation in MO about dealers having to provide titles within 30 days or they are required to buy the car back for full price. I'm pretty sure CO doesn't have these rules as an acquantance got herself all tied up with an almost-new Wranger that appeared to have liens upon liens and nobody was willing to relinquish the title.
Keith Tanner said:And some people still wonder why the fixed price, direct from manufacturer model is popular with consumers. At most, a new car buyers buy one new car every couple of years. But a dealer gets to practice their trade several times a day. Who's going to come out ahead in a negotiation?
I always go into a negotiation with a max number and stick to that number. I cannot be swayed, and I'm always prepared to walk. But I understand that most people are not like that though, and even I prefer the fixed price model. You know going in what the conditions are, and you can make up your mind immediately without any of the nonsense.
But, regarding all the dealer shenanigans lately, I remember complaining here around 2005 about dealers advertising cars they didn't actually have. I was looking for a Neon RT and found the perfect car at a dealer about an hour away. I called, sorry that one just sold, but we can find you something else. I watched that ad for months and it never came down. I called again out of curiosity. Oh, sorry, that one just sold, we can probably find you another. Just variations on the same old BS. The consensus then was that it was a normal tactic, and today they know they can get away with almost anything
z31maniac said:ProDarwin said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:It's called a takeaway.
I call it a bait and switch. Its very dishonest behavior. I had it happen to me twice (pre/early covid, before market insanity). I called and made an appointment to look at a specific car. Both times I got there and the car had been sold earlier that day.... would I like to see something else? No. berkeley no. At least have the courtesy to tell me before I make the 1-2 hour drive.
I've also had other dealer shenanigans where they are like "oh that car is at offsite parking, would you like me to go get it?"
But then again, one time a salesman was nice enough to let me drive a car and pull a car from offsite so I could look at it, even though I was very clear up front that I would not be buying a car, I just wanted to see the size of it. Of course then I got dragged into all the questions and other bullE36 M3 and what I thought was going to be a 15 minute visit was like 2 hours.
See I don't get this. You could have just left when they started, sure it may seem rude to just walk away from someone when they are talking to you, but I also think it's rude to waste my time.
When my ex-wife wanted to get a new car before we were married, we went to a dealership that had the car she wanted in stock. They started playing the "let me ask my manager" game, so when he got up to ask his manager, we stood up and walked out the door.
I thought you said "I've NEVER had the experience many of you have had." Sounds like you've had them, too, just don't care as much as other people do...
In reply to Peabody :
FM had a dealer license in CO for a while, and I remember that any advertised car has to be specifically identified by VIN or stock number per CO law. Probably because of exactly what you're complaining about.
z31maniac said:ProDarwin said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:It's called a takeaway.
I call it a bait and switch. Its very dishonest behavior. I had it happen to me twice (pre/early covid, before market insanity). I called and made an appointment to look at a specific car. Both times I got there and the car had been sold earlier that day.... would I like to see something else? No. berkeley no. At least have the courtesy to tell me before I make the 1-2 hour drive.
I've also had other dealer shenanigans where they are like "oh that car is at offsite parking, would you like me to go get it?"
But then again, one time a salesman was nice enough to let me drive a car and pull a car from offsite so I could look at it, even though I was very clear up front that I would not be buying a car, I just wanted to see the size of it. Of course then I got dragged into all the questions and other bullE36 M3 and what I thought was going to be a 15 minute visit was like 2 hours.
See I don't get this. You could have just left when they started, sure it may seem rude to just walk away from someone when they are talking to you, but I also think it's rude to waste my time.
When my ex-wife wanted to get a new car before we were married, we went to a dealership that had the car she wanted in stock. They started playing the "let me ask my manager" game, so when he got up to ask his manager, we stood up and walked out the door.
I never sold a car to a customer who brought their title with them, and a had about a 30% success rate with customers who "just wanted to browse."
That should be an indicator of how persuasive the psychology is. I know you're more savvy than most, but they have invested millions in "un-assing" people from their money. Flowcharts, spreadsheets, psychologist research, experience. You would be surprised how many people fall for the games.
z31maniac said:ProDarwin said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:It's called a takeaway.
I call it a bait and switch. Its very dishonest behavior. I had it happen to me twice (pre/early covid, before market insanity). I called and made an appointment to look at a specific car. Both times I got there and the car had been sold earlier that day.... would I like to see something else? No. berkeley no. At least have the courtesy to tell me before I make the 1-2 hour drive.
I've also had other dealer shenanigans where they are like "oh that car is at offsite parking, would you like me to go get it?"
But then again, one time a salesman was nice enough to let me drive a car and pull a car from offsite so I could look at it, even though I was very clear up front that I would not be buying a car, I just wanted to see the size of it. Of course then I got dragged into all the questions and other bullE36 M3 and what I thought was going to be a 15 minute visit was like 2 hours.
See I don't get this. You could have just left when they started, sure it may seem rude to just walk away from someone when they are talking to you, but I also think it's rude to waste my time.
When my ex-wife wanted to get a new car before we were married, we went to a dealership that had the car she wanted in stock. They started playing the "let me ask my manager" game, so when he got up to ask his manager, we stood up and walked out the door.
Keith Tanner said:I suspect that "not being rude" is a societal norm that the sales people are using to their advantage.
I agree.
I think in case mentioned, this guy went and got a car for me from offsite even though I was clear I wasn't going to buy it. So I felt like I was already wasting his time. When he asked me to stay and answer a few questions I obliged. I have trouble being rude sometimes. Yes, I should have just said "thank you, gotta run" and left.
Keith Tanner said:And some people still wonder why the fixed price, direct from manufacturer model is popular with consumers.
You do realize there is a price right on the sticker right? You don't have to negotiate.
Steve_Jones said:Keith Tanner said:And some people still wonder why the fixed price, direct from manufacturer model is popular with consumers.
You do realize there is a price right on the sticker right? You don't have to negotiate.
Yup, I am aware of that. It would be a lot more plausible if certain manufacturers didn't very clearly inflate it. Until the recent manufacturing drought, Ford was basically putting $10k on the hood of every F150 just to get you in the showroom. So for most manufacturers, the price on the sticker is about as legit as the price on something at Sears and everyone knew it. For some people, the idea that they're going to SAVE! SAVE! SAVE! is a powerful motivator. Retail stores know this, it's basically how Eddie Bauer works - pad your prices by 50% and then offer 30% off. The dealers double down on this by playing negotiation games.
Or you can take the opposite approach, where you price something fairly and you stick with that price. If two people buy the same product, Turns out this is actually pretty popular with consumers. And Ford's figured it out, which is why they're trying to get rid of the pricing games on their EV reboot.
It's no coincidence that the last time I bought a car, it was direct from the manufacturer. And the time before that, I walked in with a fleet discount that was negotiated at a national level by a billion dollar company. If it's not offered for the price I'm willing to pay, I don't consider it. You tell me I can buy a $50k car for $30k, I respond with "wow, you were really trying to rip me off, weren't you?".
Anyone who thinks they can walk into a dealer and negotiate a better deal than the dealer is willing to give probably also thinks they can beat the house in Vegas while sitting in a billion dollar building. There are a very large number of those people out there.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Saturn had the most mark up of any GM car in its class. People walked in and paid MSRP and were happy when they got a birthday card...
In you model Ford wouldn't have to put the $10k on the hood, they'd just keep it, after all, where else are you going to buy one? Are you suggesting they wouldn't? Who decides what a "fair profit" is? I'd say it's the guy selling it that decides, especially if he's the manufacturer.
Why do people care if someone else paid less for a product? I bought a 12 pack of Coke on sale yesterday, does that make the 12 pack you bought at full price a rip off?
In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :
Ours is Doug!
dculberson said:z31maniac said:ProDarwin said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:It's called a takeaway.
I call it a bait and switch. Its very dishonest behavior. I had it happen to me twice (pre/early covid, before market insanity). I called and made an appointment to look at a specific car. Both times I got there and the car had been sold earlier that day.... would I like to see something else? No. berkeley no. At least have the courtesy to tell me before I make the 1-2 hour drive.
I've also had other dealer shenanigans where they are like "oh that car is at offsite parking, would you like me to go get it?"
But then again, one time a salesman was nice enough to let me drive a car and pull a car from offsite so I could look at it, even though I was very clear up front that I would not be buying a car, I just wanted to see the size of it. Of course then I got dragged into all the questions and other bullE36 M3 and what I thought was going to be a 15 minute visit was like 2 hours.
See I don't get this. You could have just left when they started, sure it may seem rude to just walk away from someone when they are talking to you, but I also think it's rude to waste my time.
When my ex-wife wanted to get a new car before we were married, we went to a dealership that had the car she wanted in stock. They started playing the "let me ask my manager" game, so when he got up to ask his manager, we stood up and walked out the door.
I thought you said "I've NEVER had the experience many of you have had." Sounds like you've had them, too, just don't care as much as other people do...
When I've bought a car yes, she made it clear that she wanted to do it on her own without my help. I just suggested they were messing with her and we should leave, she agreed. I have no doubt that low credit/income buyers are treated differently, but according to the GRM ad packets, that doesn't seem to be the typical GRM'r.
I will admit it probably makes a difference that 4 of the 6 new cars I've purchased, I ordered vs just buying whatever was on the lot.
I say this every time one of these threads comes up:
Unless you're facing walking to work tomorrow, you have all the power in the negotiation.
YOU have the money they need. THEY have an expensive and depreciating liability on their books.
There's no reason to tolerate shenanigans of any kind. Leave and find another dealer.
Duke said:I say this every time one of these threads comes up:
Unless you're facing walking to work tomorrow, you have all the power in the negotiation.
YOU have the money they need. THEY have an expensive and depreciating liability on their books.
There's no reason to tolerate shenanigans of any kind. Leave and find another dealer.
I disagree. Looking for a manual transmission car? You don't have all the power. Some cars are hard to find. If this hypothetical deal doesn't work, the next one is >2 hours away. And then when I get there it will have been sold/not there anyway. Then what? Most of us are picky about what we want so it isn't so straightforward.
Cars aren't enough of a commodity than I can just go to the next dealer and find what I want.
ProDarwin said:Duke said:I say this every time one of these threads comes up:
Unless you're facing walking to work tomorrow, you have all the power in the negotiation.
YOU have the money they need. THEY have an expensive and depreciating liability on their books.
There's no reason to tolerate shenanigans of any kind. Leave and find another dealer.
I disagree. Looking for a manual transmission car? You don't have all the power. Some cars are hard to find. If this hypothetical deal doesn't work, the next one is >2 hours away. And then when I get there it will have been sold/not there anyway. Then what? Most of us are picky about what we want so it isn't so straightforward.
Cars aren't enough of a commodity than I can just go to the next dealer and find what I want.
There are always exceptions, but for the most part I think he's right. It's how I negotiate and I let them know that.
But I thought about it, and while I really prefer the fixed price model, I do so only in the presence of the standard negotiation model. It gives me more options, and should create more competition.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to z31maniac :
I'm 50% Italian; we like to argue with everyone.
I'm 25% Bohemian; we like to frugally purchase everything.
Combine the two and you have one annoying customer.
My girlfriend is 100% Korean. Her mother grew up during some of the more oppressive regimes in South Korea and her frugality was passed on. I thought I was good at haggling, this girl beat me and took control of the whole situation.
When buying our Raptor, they wanted like $115k for it. In less than an hour we had them at MSRP because of her no-nonsense approach. She also got them to give us $5k over what I paid for my Kona N.
For these reasons, I'm scared to ever thing about marriage with her.
I visited a few dealerships in November. Things are definitely different.
I sent an email inquiry & also called ahead to the VW dealer to drive a used Atlas. It was ready out front when I showed up. I took a brief test drive, asked questions about trim levels, and told him it felt like it vibration in the wheel, so either tire issues or tie rods, etc. . Zero effort to try and direct me towards buying anything else or resolving the tire issue. We were the only people shopping at the dealership (Sunday afternoon). We thanked him for his time & said we'd call him if we decide to move forward. No follow-up, or even interest in selling us a car. The listed price was bit high for the mileage, but it was the closest Atlas to our house so we checked it out. I think we'd have considered it at the "right" price, but SWMBO didn't like the rear seats so I'm glad we were able to rule it out quickly.
A few days later I went to a Ford Dealership to test drive the lone Flex in the area & also to sit in Explorers & Expeditions. Sales guy had the Flex ready. We went for a test drive & sat in a few different vehicles to get a sense for size & viability. He had an appointment so after 15 minutes or so he left us in the back lot looking at cars. One of his colleagues eventually brought out keys for the car we wanted to take a closer look at. They indicated they may have a few hundred bucks movement (max) on the online prices. Neither sales guy made any effort to get us to buy. I've looked at cars at this Ford dealership a few times and they were pretty low pressure & chill every other time...so I wasn't necessarily surprised. A few years ago they let me take a V6 manual mustang home overnight to see if I liked it (I didn't). They must of had so much foot traffic they were indifferent. I was looking at $15k to $25k used SUVs. They had a dozen $80k Expedition Max on the lot...so I've got to assume they'd rather sell a new truck or SUV..
I noticed most dealerships will list the car w/out pictures as they are cleaning it up. I had a few instances where someone went out & took pictures for me because they hadn't been posted yet. I emailed & spoke to a few different dealerships within a few hundred miles to inquire about SUVs I was interested in. I noticed way less follow-up than prior car shopping experiences. Pre-COVID if you gave out your phone number you could expect endless phone calls. This time around, I think I only got 1-2 voicemails & a handful of emails.
I prefer private party when it's possible/advantageous because some dealers can be a PITA. When I bought my first minivan from a Honda dealer in 2011 I had to walk to my car to leave twice (I wasn't bluffing) when they tried to change the price & add on BS fees. I was sitting in my car reversing out of the parking spot until they begged me to stop. SWMBO thought I was being a jerk for wasting their time...but they were clearly trying to cash in the fact she LOVED the van. We wound up getting a fair deal, but they made it painful enough I won't shop there again.
When I bought my VW 6MT Alltrack (2017) the dealership called me when I was halfway home and offered within $200 of the deal I had asked for when I was there (on a GSW 4motion). If I wasn't already 30 minutes away & leaving on a road trip early the next AM I probably would have bought it. I'm really glad they didn't match my number, because I really didn't want to turn around. I wound up getting an even better deal from the same dealership on my Alltrack 6 weeks later. I paid less than any online price for a new 6MT alltrack withing 1000 miles. No fees, no BS. I'd buy from them again.
Long story short, walking away used to be the best way to show you weren't going to crumble at first pencil. These days, dealers are much more take-it-or-leave-it.
ProDarwin said:Duke said:Unless you're facing walking to work tomorrow, you have all the power in the negotiation.
I disagree. Looking for a manual transmission car? You don't have all the power. Some cars are hard to find. If this hypothetical deal doesn't work, the next one is >2 hours away. And then when I get there it will have been sold/not there anyway. Then what? Most of us are picky about what we want so it isn't so straightforward.
Cars aren't enough of a commodity than I can just go to the next dealer and find what I want.
Maybe not for you or I. But they are for 95% of the car-buying public that seems to hate the dealership experience.
That's because they're approaching it anywhere from "badly" to "completely berking wrong".
If you want a unicorn you're going to have to either A) PAY for a unicorn, or B) TRAVEL for the right deal on that unicorn. Maybe both, depending on the unicorn. That's just the law of supply and demand. Rare commodities are hard to find and tend to cost more.
That's still no reason to tolerate shenanigans. Know what you want, what you're willing to pay for it, and what you'll do to get it. Stick to the script.
When I bought my V60 I took a 4-hour train ride from Delaware to upstate Connecticut to get the unicorn I wanted. Plus, they didn't come down as much as I would have liked on the price. But they DID sell me the exact car I wanted, at a price I was willing to pay for it. I could have tried to wait them out, but that ran the risk of someone else deciding to shoot first.
And there weren't any shenanigans involved. We did all of our negotiations over the phone and email. Once I agreed and made the trip, we were in the dealership for less than an hour - inspection, test drive, sign the paperwork and hand over the check, get the keys and head to the hotel. The salesman even came to pick us up at the station and stayed after hours to close the deal, because our train had been delayed.
z31maniac said:I will admit it probably makes a difference that 4 of the 6 new cars I've purchased, I ordered vs just buying whatever was on the lot.
When you order a car it moves the shenanigans from the purchase time to the order time. Not many of them if you're ordering a bread-and-butter car in normal/pre-covid times, but if you're trying to order something with limited production and limited dealer availability then it can get pretty ugly.
Steve_Jones said:Who decides what a "fair profit" is? I'd say it's the guy selling it that decides, especially if he's the manufacturer.
I'd say both the seller and the consumer, otherwise nobody would sell or buy anything. What that fair profit number winds up being is going to differ from customer to customer, too.
The ocean is full of various kinds of crap. So is a septic tank. Many people are willing to swim in one, but not the other.
Buying privately used to be my go-to method, but nowadays cars are just so expensive (unless you're shopping in GRM territory) that finding something you want for sale privately can be hard. How many of these later model vehicles actually have paid off titles? Do I really want to hassle with running to some bank who is in the middle with a lien on it?
I don't want to use dealers, but it's becoming a world where I nearly have to. Plus, trying to sell my old vehicle has become increasingly difficult...especially if it has a manual transmission. So many time wasters now it almost isn't worth the extra bucks over just trading it in.
In reply to ddavidv :
Needing a notarized bill of sale is becoming a PITA for private party sales now too. It really puts the damper on the "have cash now" part of a sale when you have to go find an available notary/bank anyway. If I was a conspiracy beliving person, I would say this new (for NJ) rule was done at the behest of used car dealers...
TR7 said:In reply to ddavidv :
Needing a notarized bill of sale is becoming a PITA for private party sales now too. It really puts the damper on the "have cash now" part of a sale when you have to go find an available notary/bank anyway. If I was a conspiracy beliving person, I would say this new (for NJ) rule was done at the behest of used car dealers...
Yup. Was there a ton of title fraud before? I'd like to know.
This is the rule in NC, and it shocking how much this simple difference between NC and VA makes buying a used car *that* much more of a pain in the ass.
Additionally in NC, there is no such thing as a legal "trip permit" of any sort for a private sale. The ONLY way you can legally drive a private party car back after purchasing it is to go to the DMV and get tags/title. Meanwhile in VA (with a VA license) you can go online, put in your license # and a Vin, print out a $3 trip permit, and you are good to go.
I've been to a few dealerships in the past 2 months.
First one the salesman was right there when I got out of my car, but seemed really cold and uninterested. Helpful enough, but seemed in no way interested in selling me a car. I told him I was looking to purchase brand new with cash.
Second dealer I walked around the lot for 10 minutes checking out cars, looking for extra pedals. No salesman. I went into the building and was asked what I was looking for. Upon telling him I was looking for a stick, he chortled and blew me off, went back to talking with a coworker.
Third dealer had a salesman at my car(ratty old jeep) on a golfcart by the time I opened my door. This guy helped me search the whole lot, took me on a test drive, was interested in taking me on a second, helped me check his whole dealer network, and has been texting me ever since with cars he's found that are near what I want.
You know which dealer I'll go to if I buy a new car.
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