OMG, Lincoln is *doomed*

In reply to 4cylndrfury:

Which Acura is currently not a derivative of a Honda? They are all FWD or AWD versions of what Honda markets. All of them.

Buicks appear to be unique, but like Acura, they have put multiple cars on single GM platforms.

Oddly, only Lincoln gets the massive attention for that.

Again, if that's what you think the problem is, you are missing a lot.

The core problem is identity. What in the world is a Lincoln?

Buick and Acura has fooled enough with their image that the sharing is overlooked. Lincoln can't figure out what it's supposed to be.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

mad_machine wrote: I will never understand why Ford did not wake up with the CTS hit the road. They had the perfect oppertunity to steal some of Caddy's thunder with a better LS... but instead tucked tail and went back the way they came.

Seriously. All they had to do was steal the engine from the Jag S-type R (platform mate with the LS) and they could have gone toe-to-toe with the first-gen CTS-V. I always liked the LS, there were a couple of times when I considered buying one used. It was really too bad they gave up on it, it was a good platform.

It used to be said that Mercury was a Ford put together using lock washers. And Lincoln was just a Mercury with an insulation and sound deadener package. Today, Fords have been improved to a level that would be considered traditional Lincoln quality, but the bar has not been raised similarly for the Lincoln brand.

So there is very little difference percieved by the average car buyer between the two brands. If you look at Accura, Infiniti and Lexus, they are a notch above their parent brands, even though their parant brands do have overall excellent quality.

Lincoln needs to do a major re-invention of themselves to re-establish that quality difference between their models and the Ford badged counterparts. And they need to develop a line-up that captures buyers' with world-class products, not just nicely equipped versions of Ford's line-up.

Lincoln needs to look hard back at the days of the "hot rod Lincoln" and see how those cars stacked up against the competition from all comers, not just US domestics. That would give them an idea of how much of a quality gap they need to build between themselves and the foriegn brands that are their real comparison in the eyes of the buyig public.

I will say this again, they need another LS or something that can ACTUALLY compete with the euro market they should be trying to attack not whatever in the hell they are doing now.

JtspellS wrote: I will say this again, they need another LS or something that can ACTUALLY compete with the euro market they should be trying to attack not whatever in the hell they are doing now.

Probably one of the prettiest Lincolns in recent history. I see a lot of towncars due to the local taxi fleet using them. What an aweful and generic shape the newest ones have

RE: Acura

The TL, although based off the Accord platform, has different engine and drive train options.
Same goes (went?) for the TSX
The RL isn't shared with anything honda.

Lexus:

The LFA, IS, GS, and LS are not shared with Toyota.
The CT is a platform shared car, but different body, different suspension, vastly different interior than the Prius

Yes, a lot of badge engineering still exists in those brands, but they do have their own product to offer as well.

In reply to alfadriver:

Wow, you really have your no clue hat on today dontcha? Must have selectively forgotten the thread about the new C-Max extolling it's virtues and inquiring as a new replacement for the wife, but hey selective memory is definitely your thing.

I'll gladly do the same analysis on Acura and Lexus, and note that I never said either one of them is doing great. I think Buick and Cadillac are who are "doing it right". Of course you also selectively forgot my hate-on-Audi thread, too.

And you are right, the issues do run a LOT deeper than sheetmetal. That's kind of the big persona-non-grata on Lincoln, they are identical under the skin. Of course the idea that changing Lincoln's name and launching a new marketing plan with NO new product are also deeper issues as well.

We're here when you want to buck up and admit Lincoln has the most issues.

youtube.com/watch?v=fqcn_TPu4qQ

Lincoln needs a full size performance GT sedan.

They only need to look at the Aussie Falcon for a base platform. 5 liter, manual option, RWD, luxury high speed cruiser.

Damn I want one already

I find the Lincoln and the Taurus both to be cases of "wtf were they thinking".

There is nothing unique about the Lincolns other than putting a different color lipstick on the same pig.

The particular pig I'm referring to is Ford's Taurus. The car that used to be a nice mid-sized family sedan. I saw one parked on the street the other day and at first I thought it was a rather long minivan. I had to have a second look to realize that it was just a new Taurus. It was almost as high as the Minivan that it was parked in front of.

The proportions and content don't fit the market IMO

Amongst all this FoMoCo bashing, I very much liked my friend's rental Edge. I could easily spend 500 mile in the reclining back seat.

I don;t bash ford.. I quite like this products over both GM and Chrysler. My family had a LOT of good luck with Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products over the years.. from a Mercury Marquis through a towncar, and even an F150. I almost bought a ranger this year.

My problem is they seem afraid to do anything "special" or "neat" with their products that might ruffle any feathers.

with this in mind.. back to Lincoln. If you look at Caddy's recent history.. when the CTS came out.. I know a LOT of people I know hated it. I am not even talking people in Caddy's demographic.. but youngish people (30s) who did not like the origami like sheetmetal... but with the regards of a decade of hindsight.. the CTS was JUST what Caddy needed.

It lowered their overall owner age and rather than being a car you aspired to from a Chevy, to a Buick, to finally Caddy.. it was a car everyone wanted.

Lincoln has yet to do that. They seem caught between trying to appeal to younger clients.. but without hurting the blue hair lifestyle. As such their designs.. even today.. are more evolutionary than revolutionary.

It does not help that Ford seems determined to follow VW into bringing their range upmarket even though they already have an upmarket brand

IMO, Ford needs to scrap everything Lincoln is doing except maybe the Navigator.

Then figure out what they hell they want Lincoln to be. If I were running the place, I would make Lincoln "American Decadence". Lincoln should be something to aspire to.

I'd start with three models:
* Mk IX: Start the Shelby GR1 concept, stuff it with an Ecoboost verison of the aluminum 5.8L, slap on a coat of peal black paint and stuff it with alcantara. Make people question buying an Aston Martin.
* Continental: full-size luxury sedan, should be realistically cross-shopped against the AMG xxx63s and BMW 760.
* Towncar: Take the new '15 Mustang chassis, stretch it into a sedan, lincolnize the body a bit, offer it with 5.0 and 5.0 Ecoboost engines.

Rob_Mopar wrote: They need a Dax Shepard edition to spice up sales.

Needs moar positive camber, y0.

ReverendDexter wrote: IMO, Ford needs to scrap everything Lincoln is doing except *maybe* the Navigator. Then figure out what they hell they want Lincoln to be. If I were running the place, I would make Lincoln "American Decadence". Lincoln should be something to aspire to. I'd start with three models: * Mk IX: Start the Shelby GR1 concept, stuff it with an Ecoboost verison of the aluminum 5.8L, slap on a coat of peal black paint and stuff it with alcantara. Make people question buying an Aston Martin. * Continental: full-size luxury sedan, should be realistically cross-shopped against the AMG xxx63s and BMW 760. * Towncar: Take the new '15 Mustang chassis, stretch it into a sedan, lincolnize the body a bit, offer it with 5.0 and 5.0 Ecoboost engines.

I like this idea. I mean, why not?

mad_machine wrote: I don;t bash ford.. I quite like this products over both GM and Chrysler. My family had a LOT of good luck with Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products over the years.. from a Mercury Marquis through a towncar, and even an F150. I almost bought a ranger this year. My problem is they seem afraid to do anything "special" or "neat" with their products that might ruffle any feathers. with this in mind.. back to Lincoln. If you look at Caddy's recent history.. when the CTS came out.. I know a LOT of people I know hated it. I am not even talking people in Caddy's demographic.. but youngish people (30s) who did not like the origami like sheetmetal... but with the regards of a decade of hindsight.. the CTS was JUST what Caddy needed. It lowered their overall owner age and rather than being a car you aspired to from a Chevy, to a Buick, to finally Caddy.. it was a car everyone wanted. Lincoln has yet to do that. They seem caught between trying to appeal to younger clients.. but without hurting the blue hair lifestyle. As such their designs.. even today.. are more evolutionary than revolutionary. It does not help that Ford seems determined to follow VW into bringing their range upmarket even though they already have an upmarket brand

I agree with this. The problem with Lincoln isn't badge engineering (they all do that to a large percentage). It is the fact their cars only really appeal to bluehairs.

yamaha wrote:

SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: In reply to yamaha: The Aussie Falcon is gone in 2014. I think the only Euro car we don't get already is the Mondeo.

I see ford losing the AU market with that kick in the bucket.....

Well by what I've read, the Falcon has been losing sales slowly and Ford wants to eliminate one-off vehicles made for only one country. I think the worst part, is that the Falcon Ute and 4.0L Inline 6 will also stop being made.

I actually made a blog post on this exact subject.

http://carburetorcounty.blogspot.com/2012/07/death-of-model.html

They need to get rid of all the badge engineered Fords. Make one big expensive V8 real wheel drive car that isn't based on any Ford, and a stretched version of the same with an even bigger V12 engine. Make them look like a modernized versions of the early 60's Lincoln that everybody remembers. No V6s. No SUVs. No Front wheel drive. We are talking heavy metal here, but not rebadged Ford trucks. Make them a totally different car from anything Ford makes. Make them so expensive that middle class schleps like me can't afford them.

Sell a town car version to the limo companies. Offer limos and hearses for the professional car trade. Offer an armored version for those who need that protection. Make them the biggest, baddest huge American car out there and sell them all over the world. Kind of like an American Maybach or Rolls Royce. Rich guys in Russia and China would literally kill to have one of these as will all the high rollers in this country. Your average Lincoln owner won't care if gas is $5 a gallon or $10 a gallon because he can still afford it. Let Cadillac continue to chase Mercedes and Lexis and try to make all kinds of different sorts of expensive everythings with V6s and front wheel drive for the upper middle class who don't want to drive Toyotas and Chevys. Lincoln's are for the 1%ers who want something more expensive than a Cadillac or a Mercedes and that is a global market.

Oh. and shoot everybody in the marketing department who objects to this.

In reply to Snowdoggie:

Yep, exactly my thoughts.

ReverendDexter wrote: In reply to Snowdoggie: Yep, exactly my thoughts.

Car companies are getting to be like the radio business. If the top rated station is a sports station, then every other station on the dial will turn into a sports station that isn't quite as good as the one at the top. They leave the people who don't like sports underserved and they true sports nuts would rather listen to number one than one of the pale imitations. Instead of being a pale imitation of Cadillac, Lexis and Mercedes, why not play to your strengths and do what nobody else is doing and what nobody else can do.

Instead they let the marketing douches convince them that they have to chase every single market and make something for everybody, thus you have Cadillac sports cars, Jeep SUVs that don't do off road and cheap front wheel drive Lincoln Tauruses that nobody really wants.

In reply to Snowdoggie:

I like where Cadillac has gone, but they need to have exactly what you described for Lincoln. Some big RWD cars with V8s and V16s. Yes, Sixteen.

They need a super luxo barge if they want the world market.

Snowdoggie wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: In reply to Snowdoggie: Yep, exactly my thoughts.

Car companies are getting to be like the radio business. If the top rated station is a sports station, then every other station on the dial will turn into a sports station that isn't quite as good as the one at the top. They leave the people who don't like sports underserved and they true sports nuts would rather listen to number one than one of the pale imitations. Instead of being a pale imitation of Cadillac, Lexis and Mercedes, why not play to your strengths and do what nobody else is doing and what nobody else can do. Instead they let the marketing douches convince them that they have to chase every single market and make something for everybody, thus you have Cadillac sports cars, Jeep SUVs that don't do off road and cheap front wheel drive Lincoln Tauruses that nobody really wants.

Marketing department sees: New Hood ornament and full-page spread in Forbes.