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AutoXR
AutoXR HalfDork
2/9/12 2:26 p.m.

I put my compressor in the ceiling (60 Gal) and insulated. Great way to get it the hell out of the way. I also put florescents on the wall .. it's amazing what a difference it makes when doing body work

NOHOME
NOHOME HalfDork
2/9/12 2:37 p.m.

Your shop sounds like a dream palace.

Not sure about your area, but for every feature that I thought of putting in my 20X 40" "Storage Building , the city inspector, the property tax man and the insurance company had a hand stuck out. I had the shell built on full footings and finished the rest myself. Had I had the contractor do it all, I would have had city code inspectors for the insulation, electrical and interior finish.

Less windows =more security. "Insulation is heat you only pay for once"Spray foam insulation is the best. Warm and quiet from the outside and toasty warm on the inside. I use a radiant tube heater since I like to keep the shop cool and have the ability to be warm in about 10 minutes. In floor heating will be slow to change.

AutoXR
AutoXR HalfDork
2/9/12 2:39 p.m.

I used "blow in " cellulose in the ceiling. I got the machine free when I bought 20 bails. Did it to an R60 standard. Messy stuff, but quick to do.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
2/9/12 2:42 p.m.
NOHOME wrote: I use a radiant tube heater since I like to keep the shop cool and have the ability to be warm in about 10 minutes. In floor heating will be slow to change.

When I decided to use radiant floor heating, I bought two infra red heaters with the intention of putting one on each end for this very reason. After I had it all up and running, I realized it took next to no energy to keep the shop at 60 degrees using the floor heat, so I sold the infra red heaters. I would trade a warm floor for fast heat any day. You just can't beat it. And since the floor is warm, I can walk around in a T-shirt at 60 deg and be hot. No drafts, no air movement to screw up a paint job, no temperature swings as the heat kicks on and off. It's perfect. I'm putting it in my house next.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde HalfDork
2/9/12 2:45 p.m.

Seeing the comments about increasing property value, I'll relate my experience only because it baffles me. When we bought the house (on an FHA loan almost 10 years back), the loan stalled in underwriting and they almost wouldn't do it because of the detached shop. It's 24x35, dry, unheated, but has power and is finished inside. they considered it an "over improvement to the property for the neighborhood."

WTF?

Even though the appraiser had been very clear with me that detached structures didn't raise value on an appraisal.

Unless, apparantly, it's a tax appraisal. My property taxes jumped by 15% a couple years back when they "discovered" I had the shop. Which was built with all the proper permits 2 years before we bought the house.

WTF?

So the appraiser for the bank says it doesn't count, but the county says it does? I think I'm getting screwed somehow.....

Tyler H
Tyler H Dork
2/9/12 2:56 p.m.
pres589 wrote: I've heard of a buried Cat5 cable blowing up network hardware because of a ground loop between structures. Need to make sure that can't happen although I would think going from a plastic bodied router powered by a switching supply without a ground lug out, what, a small switch? Probably can't happen. Commercial electrical smarties here should probably pipe up with input; I read about this in Packet, the magazine Cisco (did?) put out. Central vac sounds great but my parents have it in their house and frankly I find it a hassle. Why not just have your normal wet/dry shop vac on wheels? In-floor heat sounds extremely nice.

Unless the buildings share the same utility power and you can bond the grounds, the best bet for data is nonconductive media - fiber or wifi. Multimode fiber and switches with gig-e are cheaper than one might think.

If I had this set up, I would also put my file server running my backups in the 'barn,' in case of fire. We have about 4TB of photos, home movies and my wife's photography business on the line.

minimac
minimac SuperDork
2/9/12 3:07 p.m.

A window unit(AC) for upstairs will be more than sufficient, especially if you have 220. A central wet/dry vac system is not worth the expense and piping, especially since you need the room for water and drain piping. No matter how well you insulate, a garage door is a huge heat loss. If you can get by with just one, you might want to reconsider that. The compressor would be quieter(inside) and run cooler if outside the main structure. Being able to isolate the stairs from the rest of the downstairs area, will keep upstairs warmer in winter and cooler in the summer. By having water and a bathroom, if your area is like here, it will be taxed differently(a lot higher) than being just a garage. Build it first, then finish it inside. Put up the garage first and you'll have a secure area for building mat'ls. when you do the house. I can't imagine SWMBO would tolerate having a man cave completed, before the house.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn SuperDork
2/9/12 3:52 p.m.

A lot of good suggestions, if you have unlimited funds...

The first thing to do is figure out what you can and can't do, per local, state and national codes and regulations. Figure out how big it can be, and how tall. Find out required setbacks from property lines. Bathrooms, sleeping areas, floor drains, separate electric services among other things all may or may not be allowed.

pete240z
pete240z SuperDork
2/9/12 4:17 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: And you can't have too many lights or outlets.

I worked with an electrical engineer that built his own garage and he wanted to be able to move less than 24" and plug in a tool at any location in his garage. So he had 4 recepticles every 2 feet around the entire perimeter of his garage.

The guy was an idiot to work with but I thought he was a genius.

icaneat50eggs
icaneat50eggs New Reader
2/9/12 4:41 p.m.

Let me HIGHLY suggest you go down to your local municipality and run all this by them. I used to work as a city engineer and I can't tell you how many people ran afoul of zoning laws. Really you should have looked at this very very carefully before you bought. I had a whole section of town that sold 1 acre lots, but the zoning there limited "accessory buildings" to no water or sewer. Tons of people didn't know this. Then you have to go apply for a waiver, which may or may not be granted.

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin New Reader
2/9/12 9:55 p.m.

Having built a couple, here are a couple of ideas.

Floor anchor of some kind before you poor concrete to bend or straighten steel or pull against. When you take off for the summer you can padlock your toys to it.

If you can't go big then put your workbench across the side wall not the back. You can always push a project against a side wall to make work space but it sucks to not be able to clove the door when you have the front end of your toy apart.

If you do any fabbing think about a very level section of concrete for layout.

Way more plugs than you think you will need

anchors in the concrete for a steel work bench

I boult a big slab of 1/2 inch plate into the middle of one of my benches. Great for BFH work. It has a bump out with the vise attached so I can put long stock in the vise and rotate it.

Sheet one corner with roofing steel and do all your welding and cutting there.

Mount your compressor up high under the eves behind the shop and add a remote drain

happy building

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte HalfDork
2/9/12 10:04 p.m.

Bearmiata.Trudat^ Welcome .

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 Dork
2/9/12 10:17 p.m.
nocones wrote: Not the information/input I'm sure you were looking for but.. Why buy the land now and pay interest on it for 5 years? Is it that special of a property that there won't be similar available when you are ready to build/buy with cash? Over the next 5 years you could save up your money and pay cash for the lot and have in your pocket all of the interest you would be spending over the next 5 years. Plus that way if something where to happen health/employment wise you only have to worry about putting a roof over your head not putting a roof over your head and keeping a vacant lot upkept and out of forclosure. As to a shop build as big as you can and within the building have a ~24x40ish heated area for you workshop (2 of them if you are going to do wood/metal&Car things). I think my ideal building would be ~100x40 with half unheated storage, half heated divided into wood/metal workshop.

I'm normally a strong proponent of the language you're speaking. But what is 5 years worth? We have a very finite time on the earth where we can use a garage. Say we live to 85. Say we have the money to afford this (through financing) by 35, and will not be physically capable generally speaking by 70. That gives us 35 years. A 5 year delay? 15% of that time. This is one of those rare occasions that spending the extra money is worth it.

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte HalfDork
2/9/12 10:21 p.m.

Because Racecar?

Brendan
Brendan New Reader
2/10/12 7:39 a.m.

Go here:

http://www.garagejournal.com

And you can spend months reading and coming up with ideas. Some you could never afford, others that would boggle your mind what people do with a 2 car garage (Check out 12-gauge garage below...). Some of my favorites:

The 12 Gauge Garage: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55006

OldCarGuy's New Toy Shop: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2122

Hot Rod Garage in the Works: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48204

In Floor Scissor Lift: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35433

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
2/10/12 8:06 a.m.
nocones wrote: Not the information/input I'm sure you were looking for but.. Why buy the land now and pay interest on it for 5 years? Is it that special of a property that there won't be similar available when you are ready to build/buy with cash? Over the next 5 years you could save up your money and pay cash for the lot and have in your pocket all of the interest you would be spending over the next 5 years. Plus that way if something where to happen health/employment wise you only have to worry about putting a roof over your head not putting a roof over your head and keeping a vacant lot upkept and out of forclosure. As to a shop build as big as you can and within the building have a ~24x40ish heated area for you workshop (2 of them if you are going to do wood/metal&Car things). I think my ideal building would be ~100x40 with half unheated storage, half heated divided into wood/metal workshop.

the lots are leftovers from a developer who went belly up, and now a bank is holding the bag. The current list prices are about 70% less than they were this time last year - they already have water and underground electric/phone/cable tie ins, and are approved fro septic by the county. The lots are literally flying off the shelf. In the 5 months or so we have known about them, 11 of the 26 have sold. If we wait, its likely the good ones (more square shaped, 2+ acre lots, vs the looooong lots that have you 150'+ from the road, and another 150'+ from the woodline, but only a few yards from your neighbor) will be gone. We have to buy now. THe plus side, is that when we own the lot, we can use the equity as a down payment on the house.

oldopelguy
oldopelguy Dork
2/10/12 8:20 a.m.

A garage needs at least 2 stalls, but a "shop" needs 4 minimum.

You need 1 for the car being worked on, 1 for the parts coming off of or going onto that car, 1 for the tool box/ drill press/ welder/ grinder/ chop saw, and one you can get your driver into for oil changes and emergency maintenance if something comes up while the project car is still in pieces. Add 2 more for table saw/ planer/ wood drill press and wood storage/ sawdust-to-spark buffer or barrier if you do wood work.

Also investigate your electrical options where you live thoroughly. For example, 2ga aluminium wire is plenty capable or carrying power from your main panel to a sub-panel, but it can't be used indoors in most places. Copper rated the same would cost you a small child these days. But if the aluminium wire is routed from a main panel on one side of a shop to a sub on the other under under the cement floor, for example, sometimes it is allowed. Planning ahead beats trying to get a 50A rated extension cord for a welder.

Also, detached shop should have 3 conduit tubes to the house. One rated and installed per code for all the real power to/from the building, one installed per code but for low-voltage stuff like cable/ internet/ phone/ security cameras, and one for an air line from th shop to the house. Pneumatics around the house are fun.

nocones
nocones HalfDork
2/10/12 8:36 a.m.
4cylndrfury wrote: the lots are leftovers from a developer who went belly up, and now a bank is holding the bag. The current list prices are about 70% less than they were this time last year - they already have water and underground electric/phone/cable tie ins, and are approved fro septic by the county. The lots are literally flying off the shelf. In the 5 months or so we have known about them, 11 of the 26 have sold. If we wait, its likely the good ones (more square shaped, 2+ acre lots, vs the looooong lots that have you 150'+ from the road, and another 150'+ from the woodline, but only a few yards from your neighbor) will be gone. We have to buy now. THe plus side, is that when we own the lot, we can use the equity as a down payment on the house.

If that's the case I would just take out a construction loan and build now. You are setting yourself up for eventually spending the total cost of whatever you are going to build on the lot. Today builders are hungry, the lot is cheap, interest rates are insanely low, and deals can be had on materials and all aspects of what you want to do. In 5 years any of this could change. It 100% for sure will cost more to do in 5 years, and if you do build now you could probably be living in the house in 6-12 months and save 4 years of payments on your current living space applying that to your new lifetime house rather than temporary living.

Good luck whatever you do!

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
2/10/12 9:54 a.m.
icaneat50eggs wrote: Let me HIGHLY suggest you go down to your local municipality and run all this by them. I used to work as a city engineer and I can't tell you how many people ran afoul of zoning laws. Really you should have looked at this very very carefully before you bought. I had a whole section of town that sold 1 acre lots, but the zoning there limited "accessory buildings" to no water or sewer. Tons of people didn't know this. Then you have to go apply for a waiver, which may or may not be granted.

We have planned to build the house for years, the shop is just a happy afterthought. We wouldve bought this land even if a detached building were totally not allowed. But, I will take the time to go to the township zoning office and see what the rules are. If plumbing is not allowed in my area (Im nearly certain it is though, based on several of the other detached garages Ive seen), I had thought about a rain collector, with some mechanism to heat water quickly. It wont be drinkable, but it will be there to wash my hands etc...

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
2/10/12 10:15 a.m.
nocones wrote:
4cylndrfury wrote: the lots are leftovers from a developer who went belly up, and now a bank is holding the bag. The current list prices are about 70% less than they were this time last year - they already have water and underground electric/phone/cable tie ins, and are approved fro septic by the county. The lots are literally flying off the shelf. In the 5 months or so we have known about them, 11 of the 26 have sold. If we wait, its likely the good ones (more square shaped, 2+ acre lots, vs the looooong lots that have you 150'+ from the road, and another 150'+ from the woodline, but only a few yards from your neighbor) will be gone. We have to buy now. THe plus side, is that when we own the lot, we can use the equity as a down payment on the house.
If that's the case I would just take out a construction loan and build now. You are setting yourself up for eventually spending the total cost of whatever you are going to build on the lot. Today builders are hungry, the lot is cheap, interest rates are insanely low, and deals can be had on materials and all aspects of what you want to do. In 5 years any of this could change. It 100% for sure will cost more to do in 5 years, and if you do build now you could probably be living in the house in 6-12 months and save 4 years of payments on your current living space applying that to your new lifetime house rather than temporary living. Good luck whatever you do!

I hear you, and we thought about that option, quite a bit actually - we spoke to a few builders, and even bought some prints (a grand I'll never get back lol). But the fact that the land will cover our down payment really pushed the issue of waiting. If we wait, the lot WILL appreciate - similar lots outside of the neighborhood we are in are going for 120% of what we are probably going to get this for - right now. In 5 years, the lot we want may be worth 150%...maybe more. The equity we would have, basically the value of the land we would own, goes toward the down payment. Its unlikely that the cost to build the house will see that kind of increase over the same period, so it makes fiscal sense for us to wait. Our mortgage would be considerably less vs building and buying land all at once. That, and given our current incomes, we can get a loan to buy this land right now - weve been pre-approved. Its unlikely that given our debt to income, we would be able to swing the loan for the house and the land, even if we sold the house we are in now to bring our debt down.

Not to mention, its only a possibility that we could sell our current home, and cover realtor fees and the like. Its far more likely we would take a loss, eating up whatever savings we have to cover the difference, and pay the realtors. Now, we have nothing down...good luck getting a loan nowadays without a down payment. SO Im living in an apartment, while the land I want get sold out from underneath me, saving for 5 years to scrape a down payment together for the house I want to buy, paying rent for 60 months, and not gaining any equity in the rental with all that money.

I appreciate the advice, but we have been working on this plan for nearly 6 months now, working with a realtor in the family to make the best decisions for us now, and setting ourselves up for success in the future.

darkbuddha
darkbuddha Reader
2/10/12 10:35 a.m.

A couple thoughts based on having watched my father build his 1200sqft "dream garage", which has a lot of issues he just didn't anticipate...

  1. If you plan to have it climate controlled, smaller is better for the sake of maintaining a reasonable operating budget. If you do decide to go big, plan to separate the spaces (clean room, dirty room, storage, etc.) so you can have smaller areas that can be climate controlled independently more easily/cheaply with window units, multi-zone systems, or whatever. There's no reason the storage area needs to be climatized to a comfy 70 degrees when warmer or cooler (depending on weather) would be okay.

  2. There's no such thing as enough storage if you are in the habit of keeping spares/extras.

  3. If you're gonna plumb it, do it when you're building. Don't wait. Same for electric. Do it immediately.

  4. Make sure the slab is deep/strong enough to support installing that lift. (my father actually got that right!).

  5. Make sure the slab extends out at least a car length so you can roll cars out there to work on or just to get them out of the way and not have to roll them into dirt/sand/grass/whatever. (my father actually got that right too!)

Hope this helps.

arvoss
arvoss New Reader
2/10/12 10:46 a.m.

If it were me, I'd add speakers and TVs around the shop to listen to music or watch the game while you're working on the car. The cable to do it is pretty cheap and it pays off in the end. Also I'd have some sort of air filtration system to get all the dust and crap out of the air. But I've got some pretty bad allergies and your HVAC unit may do that already.

bravenrace
bravenrace SuperDork
2/10/12 12:37 p.m.
pete240z wrote:
bravenrace wrote: And you can't have too many lights or outlets.
I worked with an electrical engineer that built his own garage and he wanted to be able to move less than 24" and plug in a tool at any location in his garage. So he had 4 recepticles every 2 feet around the entire perimeter of his garage. The guy was an idiot to work with but I thought he was a genius.

Okay, well that may be a little excessive. Another thing I would add is put the recepticles up high in any location you plan to have equipment or other things against the wall.

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin New Reader
2/10/12 1:09 p.m.

About permits, Ask general questions about what you are allowed to build. Many times you can get a permit for an RV storage building or detached garage but not a shop. I have a neighbor who applied to build a shop for his restored cars.(20 of them) He was refused but since it was zoned farmland, he went back and applied for and recieved a permit to build an implement shed. So now he has a beautiful 50 by 100 shop/showroom with a very small Massey Ferguson in one corner.

sachilles
sachilles Dork
2/10/12 1:10 p.m.

External lean-to/garage add on to house the air compressor. Basically something to isolate the sound for both you and your neighbors.

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