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erika
erika New Reader
5/14/20 8:03 p.m.
Apexcarver said:

Serious question - what track day groups let them run?    Has anyone seen one running at a track day?    Even with a 4 wheel kit?

 

The 3 wheel ones do have rollover problems, I know that Bosch's work on the ESC had a lot to do with preventing rollover. 

I've read and seen videos of them tracked and autox'd, but my city only has a drag strip, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge.

Here's the rollover video -- allegedly 3rd party (competitor?) testing at the IIHS Vehicle Research Center, resulting from stability control being disabled:

 

As you would expect (geometrically), they do beg to be lowered and widened to reduce load transfer.

erika
erika New Reader
5/14/20 8:12 p.m.
Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

For $20k you could build a pretty wicked mr2 spyder that weighed similarly to one of these. (Or a considerably heavier mx5 :-p’)But That would be unreasonable right? Meanwhile I see these with some regularity. I dont get it. 

For $20k anything you build would be wicked better.  But I don't even have a proper garage anymore, let alone access to a shop.

They're huge in Florida and SoCal -- understandably.

erika
erika New Reader
5/14/20 8:15 p.m.
Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

low looks hilarious. 

See the Can-Am Spider-inspired GG Quadster

erika
erika New Reader
5/14/20 8:20 p.m.
fanfoy said:

If you want a fast 3-wheeler to track, you need one of these:

Double de price of the slingshot, but much more than double the speed.

The Campagna T-Rex is what got me interested in reverse trikes.  But they're north of $65k - at least triple the price of a Slingshot, and deep into Ariel territory.  $20k is already a stretch for me.  But I'd love to have one someday.

erika
erika New Reader
5/14/20 8:27 p.m.
Mike (Forum Supporter) said:

I've driven the Vanderhall Venice. Built as a front driver, it looks much more stable to me. My favorite has the be the now-discontinued single-seat Speedster, but that was even more impractical than the standard car.

The dealer also had a Venice and they are gorgeous, but I won't drive an automatic.  And I don't think they're more stable: the Venice has a 58.8in front track and 100.4in wheelbase; the Slingshot is 69.1in by 105in.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
5/14/20 8:29 p.m.
erika said:
Apexcarver said:

Serious question - what track day groups let them run?    Has anyone seen one running at a track day?    Even with a 4 wheel kit?

 

The 3 wheel ones do have rollover problems, I know that Bosch's work on the ESC had a lot to do with preventing rollover. 

I've read and seen videos of them tracked and autox'd, but my city only has a drag strip, so I don't have any firsthand knowledge.

Here's the rollover video -- allegedly 3rd party (competitor?) testing at the IIHS Vehicle Research Center, resulting from stability control being disabled:

 

As you would expect (geometrically), they do beg to be lowered and widened to reduce load transfer.

IIHS is insurance industry. Basically funded by most of the big insurance companies and they asess risk and costs. Been there a few times, interesting place. 

 

Thing is, scca wouldn't let it run. The local club I organize with was asked, but the "technically a motorcycle" thing meant no good with our insurance (even if we had wanted to).  I wonder if motorcycle track day groups would allow it.

Riley_88
Riley_88 New Reader
5/14/20 8:33 p.m.

I don't think this is where i'd put my money as I already have a pretty good list of both 4 wheel and 2 wheel toys I'd like to own before checking out BUT whenever I see these around I can confidently say the person driving it sure seems to be having a lot of fun.  From the tests of early models I recall there were some traction issues in the wet that caused it to swap ends and head for the nearest ditch, at least in the tester's experience, however that was apparently addressed.  As a result we now have a new vehicle that maybe doesn't appeal to you or me but does appeal to others.  Others who strengthen the hobby and keep the interest in driving alive and that can't be a bad thing!

mfennell
mfennell Reader
5/15/20 9:00 a.m.
erika said:
  But I don't even have a proper garage anymore, let alone access to a shop.

Assume you mean you don't have a good garage for projects because they sure dont look like they'd do well outside all the time.

I have a local dealer so I see them occasionally.  Your description of the build quality is spot-on.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/15/20 10:08 a.m.
erika said:
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

A well-built Locost will kick it's ass handily, but since there's no name value for the Locost, it'll sell for 1/2 to 1/3 the price. But frankly, almost any open car like an Exocet/Locost/Slingshot/Atom from a comfort perspective is  going to be more akin to a motorcycle than a car. So it's a specific taste. Most people would happily take a Miata over it. I've driven a Locost 1000 miles of twisty roads and it was a blast, but a blast in a manly damn-the torpedos way, not just a backroads romp.

Agreed; any kit car will kick it's ass handily.  My first drive in the Slingshot was a 2000-mile, cross-country road trip, and it was far more spacious and capable (cargo, navigation, fuel & range estimate) than an Exo/Locost/Atom.  All different options on the performance-practicality continuum.

 

Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

For $20k you could build a pretty wicked mr2 spyder that weighed similarly to one of these. (Or a considerably heavier mx5 :-p’)But That would be unreasonable right? Meanwhile I see these with some regularity. I dont get it. 

 

Ahh, the age old 'For the same money you could build this completely different vehicle that's intended for a different audience, market and purpose, that can kick this POS's ass'  I always love that one.  I see a ton of these things out and around.  Easily more than all kit cars, exo cars, home built cars and MRS's combined.  The people driving them invariably have big smiles on their faces and love it when I wave, flash, from whatever vehicle I happen to be driving.  Who'd have thought there was a market for a cheap, sporty toy that wasn't already 20 years old or needs thousands of hours in the garage to make, build, repair!!!!  Oh, adn the % of people that give a flying berkeley about autocross in this world is so small as to not be worth calculating.  People love them, get over it.  

Serious request for the magazine.  Please try and get one on test.  And whatever you do, don't take it to the track and please don't even mention the word autocross in the article, it's not what it's for.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
5/15/20 10:25 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:
 

Ahh, the age old 'For the same money you could build this completely different vehicle that's intended for a different audience, market and purpose, that can kick this POS's ass'  I always love that one.  I see a ton of these things out and around.  Easily more than all kit cars, exo cars, home built cars and MRS's combined.  The people driving them invariably have big smiles on their faces and love it when I wave, flash, from whatever vehicle I happen to be driving.  Who'd have thought there was a market for a cheap, sporty toy that wasn't already 20 years old or needs thousands of hours in the garage to make, build, repair!!!!  Oh, adn the % of people that give a flying berkeley about autocross in this world is so small as to not be worth calculating.  People love them, get over it.  

Serious request for the magazine.  Please try and get one on test.  And whatever you do, don't take it to the track and please don't even mention the word autocross in the article, it's not what it's for.

I wasn't tearing the vehicle down, just providing perspective. Where I've seen the most 3-wheelers was on vacation in Quebec. The average owner looked like an older motorcyclist who's tired of the discomfort and lack of safety of a two-wheeler. On the flat and straight bits, the allure of bikes escapes me - especially when you take into consideration helmets. 

mfennell
mfennell Reader
5/15/20 10:41 a.m.

They're surely way safer than those converted 3 wheel motorcycles I see all over the place.  Those look scary.

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/15/20 10:46 a.m.

I kinda Was tearing them down. I think that they’re inherently compromised in a very serious way to meet stupid laws made by people who aren’t engineers or even enthusiasts. I was offering an alternative that costs of entry is $15000+ less, that is more practical, safer,  will out perform one of these quite easily, can be parked outdoors, driven in the rain or snow, secured to park with valuables in it....... on and on.

If one of these floats your boat, great, drive around with that smile on your face. 

But that doesn’t mean that a proper roadster (or motorcycle for that matter) isn’t a great alternative. Jesus, picture the Ducati that $20k buys. Or what Keith could send you away with if you supported one of our beloved vendors and gave Him $20k? 

 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/15/20 10:47 a.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Sorry, no offence meant, although I can see my words were rather pompose.  I was aiming for amusing.  Sorry.

I'm in SE Michigan Metro Detroit area, and they are pretty common in the summer months.  I wasn't kidding when I say I see more of them than the other types of vehicel mentioned combined.

 

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/15/20 10:52 a.m.

Dont get me wrong, if they’re what you’re into, great. Enjoy. Just offering alternatives. Nuthin but love. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/15/20 10:55 a.m.

In reply to Carbon (Forum Supporter) :

Stupid laws? No, they are not stupid.  Inconvenient maybe, but definitely not stupid.

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/15/20 11:02 a.m.

The laws that make a ktm xbow illegal but allow a can am spyder? 

Uh.... ok 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/15/20 11:07 a.m.
Carbon (Forum Supporter) said:

The laws that make a ktm xbow illegal but allow a can am spyder? 

Uh.... ok 

Yup, inconvenient but sensible.  KTM X-bow is a car by any standards, CanAm Spyder is certainly a bike.  Now, you can argue for some kind of low volume exception for people who make low volume cars, but that already (effectivly) exists and KTM could use that but chose not too.  That's how things like current Morgans, Superformance GT40's and Cobra's get sold as 'component cars'.  KTM don't want to play in that market, fine, but don't bitch about not being able to sell your product if you're not prepared to try.  

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/15/20 11:08 a.m.

The law is to throw a bone to motorcyclists that are disabled but three wheels is not the best  performing or safest number. If you want people to be able to experience the motorcycle sensation theres no reason not to include a xbow or ariel atom. 

No Time
No Time Dork
5/15/20 11:09 a.m.
mfennell said:

They're surely way safer than those converted 3 wheel motorcycles I see all over the place.  Those look scary.

I've wondered how scary one of those would be on a twisty road or in a panic situation, assuming you were talking about these:

Carbon (Forum Supporter)
Carbon (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/15/20 11:14 a.m.

It’s like the law is saying that this

is safer (or better in any way lll) than this 

Thats silly to me but whatever. 

 

I guess my argument as far as the law goes is that there should be a middle ground between motorcycle and car without trying to exploit silly loopholes. 

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
5/15/20 11:41 a.m.

Hey, the laws are written to keep stupid stuff like this 

From being sold to idiot soccer-moms for cheaper than normal 4 wheel vehicles. (trust me, they dont crash well at all. Plus, they really couldnt meet the braking requirements)

Theres room for a regulation, but none of those track based cars meet safety regulations to be sold for road use as-is. There is the kit car loophole, which only works because theres work involved and people who do it know what they are getting into, so the uninformed masses dont wind up buying them and there isnt a race for the cheapest bottom transportation (see also WalMart effect) and we dont wind up with tons of people dead on the roadways. 

 

It sure as heck isn't perfect, if you come up with better write to your congressmen.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
5/15/20 11:48 a.m.

I guess my argument as far as the law goes is that there should be a middle ground between motorcycle and car without trying to exploit silly loopholes. 

No doubt. the rules basically say that you can take a rudimentary car, make it less stable, less crash protection and higher emissions and you're good to go. Say what?

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
5/15/20 11:53 a.m.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I guess my argument as far as the law goes is that there should be a middle ground between motorcycle and car without trying to exploit silly loopholes. 

No doubt. the rules basically say that you can take a rudimentary car, make it less stable, less crash protection and higher emissions and you're good to go. Say what?

This man wants to sell you some vapor-ware...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elio_Motors

 

Not saying there arent loopholes for things to sail through, but wouldnt be surprised to see some close if over-exploited. 

erika
erika New Reader
5/15/20 3:30 p.m.
Riley_88 said:

I don't think this is where i'd put my money as I already have a pretty good list of both 4 wheel and 2 wheel toys I'd like to own before checking out BUT whenever I see these around I can confidently say the person driving it sure seems to be having a lot of fun.  From the tests of early models I recall there were some traction issues in the wet that caused it to swap ends and head for the nearest ditch, at least in the tester's experience, however that was apparently addressed.  As a result we now have a new vehicle that maybe doesn't appeal to you or me but does appeal to others.  Others who strengthen the hobby and keep the interest in driving alive and that can't be a bad thing!

The list of mandatory recalls for the early models is, frankly, frightening.  As you would expect for an ATV manufacturer, they were essentially prototypes.  Thankfully, they got the bugs worked out by the end of the 1st gen in 2019, which I expect will be the most desirable for the foreseeable future.  The new Chinese engine is compromised.

erika
erika New Reader
5/15/20 3:32 p.m.
mfennell said:

Assume you mean you don't have a good garage for projects because they sure dont look like they'd do well outside all the time.

I have a local dealer so I see them occasionally.  Your description of the build quality is spot-on.

I have a carport.  I agree that they wouldn't do well outside.

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