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Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
10/6/17 2:29 p.m.

Many cars have a clear adversary: Mustangs have clashed with Camaros for years. The Evo-versus-STI feud is still going strong. These pairings are more than just petty rivalries, though–they’re an exercise in measuring performance. After all, what’s a race without a wellmatched foe nipping at your h…

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dculberson
dculberson PowerDork
10/6/17 2:34 p.m.

1000 pounds and 2 seconds faster on a road course. I would have thought the difference would be more pronounced. What does everyone else think?

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/6/17 2:44 p.m.

Agreed. That doesn't seem like a big enough difference. Same tire compound? 

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
10/6/17 2:59 p.m.

Same tire compound I think but Porsche's tires are wider by almost half an inch front and back.

Also, the Porsche has more HP, and more than a few years of sports car engineering prowess behind it.

Edit: doh! I only remembered the second half of the statement that seems plenty contradictory:

"Aside from a set of Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 tires, it’s still stock. Our 818 rolls on Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 R tires, making this a fair fight right down to the rubber."

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
10/6/17 3:09 p.m.

In reply to Robbie :

Oops missed that.

 

That makes it pretty disappointing.

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
10/6/17 3:32 p.m.

Goes to show weight isn't that important if the car can handle it.

Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
10/6/17 4:07 p.m.

I imagine that someone who isn't as dialed in with the Porsche as Shields might find the performance gap to be greater. 

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
10/7/17 7:25 p.m.

I agree, but someone with a lot of experience tracking any MR car has got to be closer than average to hopping into an 818 and doing well. 

I think one thing that's not really mentioned here is that the 818 seems intended to be a thrill machine, and it's a little incongruous to have a mostly stock powertrain in it. Add a little 'easy turbo power' and the gap could become fairly huge, especially on a faster track. Not very easy (or cheap) to add power to the Boxster. 

Brian
Brian MegaDork
10/8/17 6:03 a.m.

Track, 818. Street, Boxter. I say that having visited Factory Five two days ago. 

spin_out
spin_out HalfDork
10/8/17 6:25 a.m.

Danny your car is pretty

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
10/8/17 3:10 p.m.

 

If we're tossing out the "living with this car on regular roads" and really just comparing track capability, why not compare the 818 with a track-use Boxster S? From what I've read, a Boxster S stripped down to a "track spec but still street legal" (including a hardtop) gets down to about 2500lbs or less.

Also minor bone to pick that I didn't notice on the first read. For the FF you list the power as 225 (wheel) but list the porsche as 250 (flywheel). This is not apples to apples. 250 at the flywheel is more like 210 at the wheel for the Porsche. So anyone surprised about the "more powerful Porsche" being slower, should look again....  At very least you could have talked to your Porsche tuner buddies (I know you must have one) and found out what a typical "wheel" horsepower for the Boxster is.

Side note: remind me what engine/turbo is in your 818? 

In any case, not defending the Porsche per se, but I'm an analyst so I like to see comparitive analysis conducted using the same criteria and rating. I suspect that a 2500# Boxster S with the same level of "track" modifications as your 818 would probably beat the 818 on the track, or at least come close to it. Just speculation there, of course.

Both will badly thrash my 924S on the track, haha (and my WRX will absolutely annihilate it...)

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
10/8/17 3:16 p.m.

A quick internet search indicates that a typical stock early-2000s Boxster S puts down about 220hp and 195 tq to the wheels...

D2W
D2W HalfDork
10/9/17 3:48 p.m.

I've always been a fan of the FFR 818, watching its whole development, but that picture above with the boxster sure makes it look like a cheesy kit car.

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
10/9/17 4:23 p.m.
D2W said:

I've always been a fan of the FFR 818, watching its whole development, but that picture above with the boxster sure makes it look like a cheesy kit car.

Thank you for putting your finger on exactly how I felt!

Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
10/9/17 4:27 p.m.

The preponderance of graphics on the FF818 doesn't do it any visual favors IMO. The coupe version looks a lot more grown up.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
10/9/17 5:24 p.m.

2.32 second average faster lap is a lifetime in a race.  The 818 would be lapping the Porsche in about 40 or so laps at that track based on those lap times.

Not even close.

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
10/9/17 5:44 p.m.

Maybe the next one should be the 818 Coupe vs. Cayman R laugh

nowucme
nowucme New Reader
10/9/17 6:06 p.m.

Is that a 2002 Subaru engine and suspension in the 818? No disrespect to Mr. Smith and the fantastic corral of cars his company builds but it doesn't seem like an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps an Exocet would be a better comp.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
10/9/17 6:26 p.m.
irish44j said:

Maybe the next one should be the 818 Coupe vs. Cayman R laugh

They make an 818R kit for $10,990 that laps Lime Rock in :56 and 2:00 flat at the Glen. So, genuinely for reels fast. If you are going to build a kit car for the track I can't imagine why you wouldn't start with the better spec kit even if you had to mix and match a little to get a license plate. If you are able to swing $20k for a kit car build... you can swing 25k to make it haul ass.  Really you just need two junk cars to be donors... one crappy WRX, and then a 2004-2007 Subaru STI to donate the motor and a few other racy bits.

https://www.factoryfive.com/818/818r/

BA5
BA5 Reader
9/1/22 10:43 a.m.

This is a pretty interesting article.  I'd be curious to hear from the GRM guys who did the test: did you feel like the 818 was appropriately faster than the Porsche given being 1000 lbs lighter?  

I feel like the 2-2.5 sec/lap faster times are right on that edge of "that's an eternity in lap times on a track" and "huh, I thought it'd be faster.  I mean, it's 1000 lbs."

Did you feel like something about the 'home builted-ness' was holding it back?

DaleCarter
DaleCarter New Reader
9/1/22 8:18 p.m.

My answer to the question is "It SHOULD be!"

Building a car without having to comply with liability law, crash standards, provide comfort and luxuries, emissions compliance etc etc makes it REALLY easy to build an extremely quick and well-mannered car.

DaleCarter
DaleCarter New Reader
9/1/22 8:24 p.m.

In reply to dculberson :

Two+ seconds a lap is a LOT of time. At my local tracks, Barber Motorsports Park and Road Atlanta, the driver of the Boxster won't be able to see the FF after 3-4 laps. Put a driver in the FF with as much experience as this driver has in a Boxster/Cayman and watch the gap grow.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
9/1/22 9:20 p.m.
BA5 said:

This is a pretty interesting article.  I'd be curious to hear from the GRM guys who did the test: did you feel like the 818 was appropriately faster than the Porsche given being 1000 lbs lighter?  

I feel like the 2-2.5 sec/lap faster times are right on that edge of "that's an eternity in lap times on a track" and "huh, I thought it'd be faster.  I mean, it's 1000 lbs."

Did you feel like something about the 'home builted-ness' was holding it back?

You hit the nail on the head. While our 818 was fun, honestly we never really put the time in to fix some of its inherent evilness. It was a handful.

The Boxster is an amazing, perfectly sorted driving machine. The sort of thing that happens when a bunch of Porsche engineers spend years tuning a chassis. 

The 818 is, well, a kit car. Infinite adjustability and no production car constraints means you can do a lot to improve the driving experience. But it also means you have to do a lot to improve the driving experience, and we focused that project more on the building than the sorting. 

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check out my article on prepping the 350Z's chassis. This amount of skill/time/effort would have paid dividends with the 818. 

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
9/1/22 10:56 p.m.

Sounds like it is as much about development as anything else. As tommy said- the booster is the result of really good engineers from a really good company making a really good chassis really shine. None of us- maybe except Keith, or fellas like him who have the skills do really make an imperfect car as near to perfect as possible. 

'Isn't that the fable of the 911? A triumph of development over original engineering? Now make that original engineering nearly perfect....

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/1/22 11:55 p.m.

It actually takes a team of people to build something like the Boxster.  No one person could do it.  A lot of things in life require massive amounts of teamwork to achieve.  It's actually pretty cool when you think about it.  It's also why all project cars are a compromise in ways.  A lot of people have amazing skills far beyond mine and make really cool stuff, but it still takes an entire team to make a Boxster.  Even the FM project cars are the same.  FM had a lot of videos on how they fabbed up the parts for the ND V8 conversion.  It took more than one person to pull that off too.  There was also a lot of integration from work done by teams of people at GM too.  And then there was the team at Mazda that provided the canvass for that automotive art. 

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