paranoid_android
paranoid_android UberDork
7/27/19 6:40 p.m.

From Da Rules for the stock category (SF):

Adjustable dampers are only allowed if the OEM unit was adjustable and must retain the same number of adjustments or fewer as OEM.

Are they referring only to dampers with an external adjusting means?

I was reading about the KYB “Gas-a-just” dampers, and am not sure if they would be allowed for a SF car.  They seem to have some kind of internal thing that adjusts to driving conditions by themselves.

Thank you!

MrChaos
MrChaos Dork
7/27/19 6:47 p.m.

iirc we have a member of the rules committie on here. Pete i think.

also i believe they mean oem or oem equivalent replacement for the car you are running.

EvanB
EvanB MegaDork
7/27/19 6:49 p.m.

Those would be allowed for stock.

WillG80
WillG80 New Reader
7/27/19 6:52 p.m.

I’ve been curious about shocks in SF too. Are Bilstein HD (B6 I think?) considered OEM equivalent? Or only the B4 shocks? What about Koni yellows?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UberDork
7/29/19 7:16 a.m.

Gas-a-Justs are not adjustable, despite the name.  You should be good to use them.

EvanB
EvanB MegaDork
7/29/19 7:25 a.m.
WillG80 said:

I’ve been curious about shocks in SF too. Are Bilstein HD (B6 I think?) considered OEM equivalent? Or only the B4 shocks? What about Koni yellows?

Anything that bolts on for your application and is not externally adjustable is legal. 

Legal:

Not legal:

Koni Yellows are externally adjustable so not legal. The Koni STR.T are not adjustable so they would be legal.

02Pilot
02Pilot SuperDork
7/29/19 7:44 a.m.

If you do go with the Gas-A-Justs I'm curious to hear what you think of them on the C900. I put the Excel Gs on mine and, while they're OK, they're pretty soft for my tastes.

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
7/29/19 8:28 a.m.

Piggyback rallycross question:

 

stock says +/-1 wheel size.  Is that from the available stock wheels or from the sticker on the door?  Say 16 was the normal wheel, 17 was optional, if car had the optional wheels could you downsize to 15 because it’s -1 for the model?

Obviously not looking to be competitive with a land barge, more concerned with making correct stickers at this point. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UberDork
7/29/19 9:13 a.m.

In reply to Patrick :

If you're not gunning for a national win, I doubt anyone will be picky about it regardless of how the SCCA decides to split that particular hair.

EvanB
EvanB MegaDork
7/29/19 9:14 a.m.

If the car came with 16" wheels as standard and there was a standalone option for 17" wheels and you have those 17" wheels you could go with 15". 

If the 17" wheels are part of an option package and the car has that complete option package with 17" wheels you can only go down to 16". 

Locally nobody is going to care if you are running 15" wheels in stock if the car was readily available stock with 16", you might be protested at national events if someone cared enough. 

dps214
dps214 New Reader
7/29/19 9:53 a.m.
02Pilot said:

If you do go with the Gas-A-Justs I'm curious to hear what you think of them on the C900. I put the Excel Gs on mine and, while they're OK, they're pretty soft for my tastes.

I like the gas adjusts for the price. Not sure you can get a cheaper monotube and they work decently. I wouldn't trust them in severe duty or to last forever, but if you're looking for something decent for cheap, I'd give them a try. I have trouble imagining they'd be worse than the cheap kybs.

02Pilot
02Pilot SuperDork
7/29/19 10:52 a.m.
dps214 said:
02Pilot said:

If you do go with the Gas-A-Justs I'm curious to hear what you think of them on the C900. I put the Excel Gs on mine and, while they're OK, they're pretty soft for my tastes.

I like the gas adjusts for the price. Not sure you can get a cheaper monotube and they work decently. I wouldn't trust them in severe duty or to last forever, but if you're looking for something decent for cheap, I'd give them a try. I have trouble imagining they'd be worse than the cheap kybs.

When I brought up the topic here prior to my purchase, there were a fair number of people who indicated they found the Gas-A-Justs quite harsh and not very good; that's part of why I went with the Excel Gs on my 900. I don't think that anyone who contributed to that thread had them on a C900, however, so I'm particularly curious to hear what they're like on that platform.

paranoid_android
paranoid_android UberDork
7/29/19 1:01 p.m.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Gas-a-Justs are not adjustable, despite the name.  You should be good to use them.

This is precisely what puzzled me in the first place.

I’m not necessarily sold on those dampers yet, but they did make me wonder what exactly is legal for stock classes.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UberDork
7/29/19 1:09 p.m.

In reply to paranoid_android :

I have used them on a Celica, Toyota Pickup, 9-3, and currently have a set on Chief.  Generally speaking, the initial damping is a little harsh but they seem to perform decently for the price and can take a relatively large amount of abuse without blowing out.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/29/19 6:46 p.m.
paranoid_android said:

From Da Rules for the stock category (SF):

Adjustable dampers are only allowed if the OEM unit was adjustable and must retain the same number of adjustments or fewer as OEM.

Are they referring only to dampers with an external adjusting means?

I was reading about the KYB “Gas-a-just” dampers, and am not sure if they would be allowed for a SF car.  They seem to have some kind of internal thing that adjusts to driving conditions by themselves.

Thank you!

"Gas-a-just" KYBs are not adjustable so they are fine.

 

You can't have any kind of external adjustment, is what it means.  (Unless your car came with adjustables from the factory, like my S60R, in which case you may only use factory shocks/struts, because of a technicality in the way the rule is written - the stock dampers have three positions, nobody aftermarket makes adjustables with only three positions.  And in the case of the Honda S2000, which has external-reservoir shocks, the rules are explicit that you may ONLY use factory external-reservoir units - no Reigers for you!)

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/29/19 6:48 p.m.
EvanB said:
WillG80 said:

I’ve been curious about shocks in SF too. Are Bilstein HD (B6 I think?) considered OEM equivalent? Or only the B4 shocks? What about Koni yellows?

Anything that bolts on for your application and is not externally adjustable is legal. 

Legal:

Not legal:

Koni Yellows are externally adjustable so not legal. The Koni STR.T are not adjustable so they would be legal.

I thought all Konis could be adjusted by compressing the shaft all the way and rotating it, which means they aren't legal unless your car came with them (Neon ACR).

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/29/19 6:53 p.m.
Patrick said:

Piggyback rallycross question:

 

stock says +/-1 wheel size.  Is that from the available stock wheels or from the sticker on the door?  Say 16 was the normal wheel, 17 was optional, if car had the optional wheels could you downsize to 15 because it’s -1 for the model?

 

It's what the car came with from the factory.  "Sticker on the door" should be the rule, but SOME cars (dammit, Mopar!) had a generic sticker no matter what wheels came on it from the factory.  I think all 1st generation Neons had a door sticker that called out 165/80R13 tires, even if they had 15s mounted at the factory.

 

Dealer installed option packages do not count.  There is an interesting bit of trivia about the Focus RS, in that you can order it with a winter tire/wheel package.  You get a second set of wheels and tires, and they are 18".  The ruling on that was, the wheels were sent to the dealer on a pallet and were not mounted on the car when it left the factory, therefore not legal.  (The new +- rule means 18s are legal, BUT the "any option package may be added if the whole package is installed" would mean that, if the ruling went the other way, 17s would be legal on the RS in Stock)

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/29/19 7:00 p.m.
Patrick said:

Piggyback rallycross question:

 

stock says +/-1 wheel size.  Is that from the available stock wheels or from the sticker on the door?  Say 16 was the normal wheel, 17 was optional, if car had the optional wheels could you downsize to 15 because it’s -1 for the model?

Obviously not looking to be competitive with a land barge, more concerned with making correct stickers at this point. 

I always read this particular one through the lens of autocross rules.  If your car/trim level/etc. was available with either wheel, then yes you could go to 15 or all the way to 18.  If the 16s were only available with a lower trim level (ex: SVT Focus comes with 17s, although std. focii could have 15s or 16s(?), then you would need to run 17 +/- 1 if you had an SVT.

If the wheels are a completely separate option then you are in luck.

The whole point here is to prevent people from cherry picking what they like about various packages on the car to create something not available from the factory and running it 'stock'

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/29/19 7:08 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
Patrick said:

Piggyback rallycross question:

 

stock says +/-1 wheel size.  Is that from the available stock wheels or from the sticker on the door?  Say 16 was the normal wheel, 17 was optional, if car had the optional wheels could you downsize to 15 because it’s -1 for the model?

Obviously not looking to be competitive with a land barge, more concerned with making correct stickers at this point. 

I always read this particular one through the lens of autocross rules.  If your car/trim level/etc. was available with either wheel, then yes you could go to 15 or all the way to 18.

 

That's not the way the rule should be interpreted, by design.  Stock in rallycross means capital-S Stock, as produced by the factory, no picking and choosing.  If the dealer swapped some 17x8s on your car to sweeten the deal, welcome to Prepared unless you buy the correct wheels for your car.

 

You are only allowed to replace wear items with non-stock components.  Technically, you're not even allowed to replace the catalysts with non-OE parts.

 

I think the only reason there is a rule for option packages is so people can reshell cars if necessary. 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
7/29/19 7:14 p.m.

I think we are saying the same thing... I'm only talking about factory packages, not dealer nonsense.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
7/29/19 7:29 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

If you went to a national level event, you'd have to bring documentation to prove it.  Regionally, people probably wouldn't care, because people generally realize that car "preparation" carries little to no value relative to driver skill, which is one of the things that makes it so fun - you can't buy that 99 cent trophy, you have to earn it with skillz.  But at national-level events, there is filthy lucre at stake, and I've seen people protested out of Stock because a piece of plastic was missing underhood...

 

PS - By "you'd have to bring documentation to prove it", I mean PLEASE bring documentation to prove it, it will make dealing with a potential protest SO MUCH EASIER, instead of having 12 disinterested-not-disinterested parties looking up things on their smartphones to prove their personal agenda one way or the other.

 

edit:  To give you an idea:  At the national championship one of the years where I was the chief of protest, someone went to the trouble of doing a VIN search in the given car's manufacturer database to confirm that it left the factory with size X wheels and not the wheels that were on it.  (This is like 5% of the story, but when Mazda was paying $1k for a trophy, Subaru was paying $1200, etc... people suddenly care, and other people can and will cheat while claiming ignorance)

wae
wae SuperDork
7/29/19 7:31 p.m.
Knurled. said:

I thought all Konis could be adjusted by compressing the shaft all the way and rotating it, which means they aren't legal unless your car came with them (Neon ACR).

Nah, the orange STR-T ones don't have any adjustment.  I had a pair on the back of the Neon and they weren't bad, especially for the capital outlay.

dps214
dps214 New Reader
7/30/19 10:10 a.m.
wae said:
Knurled. said:

I thought all Konis could be adjusted by compressing the shaft all the way and rotating it, which means they aren't legal unless your car came with them (Neon ACR).

Nah, the orange STR-T ones don't have any adjustment.  I had a pair on the back of the Neon and they weren't bad, especially for the capital outlay.

Old school konis were that way, but they switched to the external knob type 20+ years ago on everything that it could be applied to. You can still buy some legacy parts that are compress and twist to adjust because the design doesn't allow for the external adjuster (944 rears for one, which were also an OE option fwiw). Then they created the str.t line which are totally non-adjustable. But realistically for a stock class car bilstein hds are what you want anyway, even if you can have the konis, unless the konis are already on the car or sitting around not getting used.

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