In reply to Patientzero :
You would have to add a LOT of ballast, though, to get most of those cars up to 3400lbs, or even 3000lbs for that matter. I think that is a the major flaw in your plan, tying prep level to weight. Maybe group cars by prep level instead and scale tire width to weight?
Out of curiosity, what do you drive?
Furious_E said:In reply to Patientzero :
You would have to add a LOT of ballast, though, to get most of those cars up to 3400lbs, or even 3000lbs for that matter. I think that is a the major flaw in your plan, tying prep level to weight. Maybe group cars by prep level instead and scale tire width to weight?
Out of curiosity, what do you drive?
The weights could be adjusted but I think 3200-3400lbs is pretty reasonable for most of those cars in stock form, especially after swapping a V8 in and presumably adding bigger tires/wheels, etc. If you had to run that much ballast then why wouldn't you just run the next class down?
I have a 2002 Mustang with LS3 swap, coilovers, torque arm, gutted as much as possible to remain CAM C legal. Currently weights 3191lbs, have to ballast up for 3300lb min in CAM C. Unless I cut another 800lbs and start cutting up the car there is really really no other class for me to run. It's a pretty basic bolt on car but only fits into "race car" classes because of the motor swap.
In reply to Patientzero :
The best car for the classes you describe is the lightest, smallest chassis possible, an engine with 400 lb/ft of torque over a wide band, and about 1000lbs of ballast. So a Pontiac Solstice with rocket style anti lag, and a 2 speed power glide transmission with a top gear redline of 73 mph. That is probably the best choice for CAM-S too if you really want to win. Chevy engineers did a more boring version of that at nationals with a 400lb heavier car and beat the field by over a second.
I’m still not sure where i fall with an s30 at 2350#, 5.7L, altered suspension pickup point in front, no interior, altered frame rails and slicks
I'll offer a contrarian view. I don't think this proposal, or others like it, would ever get off the ground. History has shown that scca really doesn't care about builder classes. And people that aren't already autocrossing with cars that should be in builder classes don't want to build their car to fit into stupid, arcane, restrictive rules that limit their creativity and their car's fun factor. Nobody with a project car wants to build to a weight minimum. Nobody wants a tire limit. Most people with cars like these really don't have any sort of field of competitors so they usually end up in an "also ran" or "everybody gets a trophy" class by themselves.
I believe the best possible future for builder and mod classes is for SCCA to heavily consolidate and simplify. I'm not sure how many modified, street mod, street prepared, etc classes there are currently but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a couple dozen or more. I propose packing these into much more heavily populated classes that would greatly improve competition, simplify class breakdowns, and generally make competition days at nationals run much more smoothly. I think 5-7 total classes could pretty well take care of this. Something like:
There that was easy! Only 7 classes needed so that everybody has a place to play and we don't have to make everybody a winner.
In reply to freetors :
You should look at driveautox.com events. They have what you are looking for: open ruleset, 6 classes, street tires.
The SCCA is in a rough position because there is an unwritten agreement that if a member spends money making a car worthless, the SCCA will not remove it's place to compete. If you build an AP1 S2000 with an AP2 engine, a custom adapter to an AP1 transmission, and destroyed fenders to fit wide tires, then the SCCA isn't going to change the rules of the class. That car is worth $0 if the BSP or FP go away as autocross classes. There are three groups of classes with similar rules that all made sense when they were created: Street Prepared, Prepared, and Street Modified. If they were made today, they would be reduced to a builders class on street tires and a builders class on race tires and the sublcasses for the various car categories (low power sports car, high power sports car, muscle car, fwd, cars with backseats).
freetors said:There that was easy! Only 7 classes needed so that everybody has a place to play and we don't have to make everybody a winner.
I understand why you would want to simplify the classes but if I were stuck in a class that I could not be competitive and have no hope of winning I wouldn't be going at all. Unless you're winning, AutoX is a very unrewarding sport. You stand out in the sun for 2+ hours shagging cones for 4 minutes of seat time if you're lucky. I only do AutoX because it is cheap and has a monthly event. If I had unlimited budget I'd be doing track days and never look back. I feel like that is the case for many drivers. I've talked to numerous people in paddock that are IMSA fans and F1 fans but enjoy AutoX because it's accessible. So by trying to make every class run Hoosiers and some sub 2600# weight to be competitive it contradicts what makes Autocross attractive in the first place. Not everyone can afford a race car, that's why they come to autocross.
This is why I proposed the weight/tire size class. You wouldn't be forced to run against some stripped down car running giant tires. I don't see how that is not fair for everyone. Two equal weight cars on the same tire should be able to run pretty close to each other no matter what the mods. This IS simplifying the rules.
Patientzero said:If I had unlimited budget I'd be doing track days and never look back.
You can't win a trackday though
ProDarwin said:Patientzero said:If I had unlimited budget I'd be doing track days and never look back.
You can't win a trackday though
You can if they are time trials.
Patrick said:I’m still not sure where i fall with an s30 at 2350#, 5.7L, altered suspension pickup point in front, no interior, altered frame rails and slicks
Probably E-Mod. That's where my engine and subframe-swapped Datsun should be too. The altered pickup points really screws us for classing, which I understand, because if properly utilized of that could be a huge advantage in other classes.
ProDarwin said:Patientzero said:If I had unlimited budget I'd be doing track days and never look back.
You can't win a trackday though
An unbent car is your prize at track day.
Patientzero said:This is why I proposed the weight/tire size class. You wouldn't be forced to run against some stripped down car running giant tires. I don't see how that is not fair for everyone. Two equal weight cars on the same tire should be able to run pretty close to each other no matter what the mods. This IS simplifying the rules.
Where are muscle cars competitive? With 200TW tires, you are in a traction competition. AWD cars with the same weight and the same tire will beat a 2WD car in most situations. Running a turbo engine makes more sense than an LS because antilag gives you 300 lb/ft torque at idle.
Where are FWD cars competitive? For autocross, they either need less weight or more power to beat a similar RWD car. They can put down about 300hp max on street tires. How are they going to compete against RWD cars with the same weight and double the hp?
In reply to spacecadet :
I run in the Detroit Region SCCA Street Mod street tire class in my Integra. Most of the street mod fwd guys choose street mod street tire over SMF because not everyone is running hoosiers and STM is a pretty active class here. Ive been near the top or fastest in class on most occassions, even when Mustangs and Subarus or V8 swapped 240sx's are participating.
For the OP: Street Mod street tire is essentially the class you are looking for. The cars that are engine swapped are pretty comparable to the low budget builds (like my Integra) since the tires are limited to 200 tw and no one running the class is a super serious nationals driver maximizing the class rules.
In reply to ojannen :
Did you read the very first post in this thread or even the title? This is all aimed at front engine, rear wheel drive platforms that are commonly V8 swapped with off-the-shelf kits. Not fwd or awd.
All the cars listed in the very first post are comparable.
Patientzero said:freetors said:There that was easy! Only 7 classes needed so that everybody has a place to play and we don't have to make everybody a winner.
I understand why you would want to simplify the classes but if I were stuck in a class that I could not be competitive and have no hope of winning I wouldn't be going at all. Unless you're winning, AutoX is a very unrewarding sport. You stand out in the sun for 2+ hours shagging cones for 4 minutes of seat time if you're lucky. I only do AutoX because it is cheap and has a monthly event. If I had unlimited budget I'd be doing track days and never look back. I feel like that is the case for many drivers. I've talked to numerous people in paddock that are IMSA fans and F1 fans but enjoy AutoX because it's accessible. So by trying to make every class run Hoosiers and some sub 2600# weight to be competitive it contradicts what makes Autocross attractive in the first place. Not everyone can afford a race car, that's why they come to autocross.
This is why I proposed the weight/tire size class. You wouldn't be forced to run against some stripped down car running giant tires. I don't see how that is not fair for everyone. Two equal weight cars on the same tire should be able to run pretty close to each other no matter what the mods. This IS simplifying the rules.
My simple answer to your point is this. If you have an underbuilt built car for it's class at locals you'll probably still win your class because you likely won't have any competition anyway. If you're serious aboute to attend Nationals then you can be serious enough to build your car to the limit of your class rules.
In reply to Patientzero :
I don't see a restriction to RWD in the opening post. Considering the Porsche is in there, FWD transaxles are legal for the class. Either way, your idea seems awfully narrow. I can't think of a 3400lb car that would be fun to autocross, benefits from an LS swap, and is not already legal in CAM.
Again, take a look at driveautox.com events. They have the classing structure you have proposed. No course work. Few serious drivers turn up. It seems like a good time.
In reply to ojannen :
The drive auto x is a branch off of Optima Street Car, I'd be interested in it but unfortunatly there are no events remotely close to me.
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