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93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
4/24/13 1:44 p.m.
Flight Service wrote:
93EXCivic wrote:
Alan Cesar wrote:
Vigo wrote: I agree with all the comments about the Fiat interior feeling very cheap.
You guys do realize that these, Mini aside, are very cheap cars? These interiors feel cheap because they ARE cheap. Even the Mini's is mostly plastic, it's just styled better. And its cost reflects that.
Truth the base MINI starts at $20k. The Fiat is $16k.
and you both are assuming new.

Used or new it doesn't change the point that the interior on the 500 is cheaper because the car is cheaper. I like the Fiat.

Vigo
Vigo UltraDork
4/24/13 2:02 p.m.
Why is a MINI worth 100% (or $10k) more than a 500?

Because if you're comparing base models to base models it's twice the car?? You're basically comparing the bottom of the b-segment to the top of the c-segment here. IMO the only reason they get cross-shopped is because the Fiat's goofy over-pricedness more or less instructs you to.

Now, i would rather own a 500 abarth for the same price as a base model Mini, sure.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltraDork
4/24/13 2:44 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
Why is a MINI worth 100% (or $10k) more than a 500?
Because if you're comparing base models to base models it's twice the car?? You're basically comparing the bottom of the b-segment to the top of the c-segment here. IMO the only reason they get cross-shopped is because the Fiat's goofy over-pricedness more or less instructs you to. Now, i would rather own a 500 abarth for the same price as a base model Mini, sure.

No, the Fiat is a Sub B and the Mini is borderline Sub B/B class. A Ford KA (same car as the 500) is a Sub B, the Fista is a B and the Focus is a C

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
4/24/13 2:55 p.m.

Dunno why this is on the Classic site, but whatever.

http://classicmotorsports.net/forum/grm/fiat-500/60341/page1/

There's my thoughts on the 500.

I'm sure the Abarth or even any 500 with a manual trans is better. But neither of those are going to address my main issues with the car, that being the horrific ergonomics, the fake euro styling (dear god what the berkeley is that interior), and that god awful stereo.

Out of this group, i'd choose the Mini in a heartbeat, but goddamnit there's no way i'd be happy about paying for it.

Cars in this segment suck unless you're willing to pony up for the Mini S or the 500 Abarth. (Shudders.)

Ian F
Ian F PowerDork
4/24/13 3:15 p.m.
Swank Force One wrote: Cars in this segment suck unless you're willing to pony up for the Mini S or the 500 Abarth. (Shudders.)

As I've driven both S and "justa" Coopers extensively, I disagree. No, the NA car doesn't have the raw acceleration of the FI car, but it can get out of its own way well enough - you just have to adjust your shift points and let it rev. Both are equally fun when the road gets twisty.

From a pure auto-x POV, I'm torn. With the current rules, the Cooper is the car to have in HS while the S is only competitive in DS. However, I could absolutely see the Cooper getting bumped to GS in a year or two if/when the new "Street" rules go into affect where it may not be so dominate. I don't see the S leaving DS.

Vigo
Vigo UltraDork
4/24/13 3:26 p.m.
No, the Fiat is a Sub B and the Mini is borderline Sub B/B class. A Ford KA (same car as the 500) is a Sub B, the Fista is a B and the Focus is a C

Are you speaking purely in terms of size? Because this whole line of conversation started on price and build quality and in price and build quality the Mini range is definitely a class up from the fiat and generally near the top of the 'compact' car class.

So what is your point exactly? Have you disproven the spirit of my statement and i missed it, or did you just semantically distract from my point by parsing things into goofy minutiae that noone uses like 'bordlerline sub b slash b'? After a certain amount of subjective modifiers you might as well give up on the whole attempt at classification..

dculberson
dculberson SuperDork
4/24/13 4:04 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
Flight Service wrote:
Zomby Woof wrote: Why is a MINI worth 100% (or $10k) more than a 500?
Yes Virgo, why is the mini worth double?
Where are you finding a brand new $10K Fiat?

Vigo said a Fiat was worth $10k new and a Mini was worth $20k new. Zomby wasn't comparing actual pricing, but what Vigo said they were worth.

Now I'm dirty for having participated here.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/24/13 4:19 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
No, the Fiat is a Sub B and the Mini is borderline Sub B/B class. A Ford KA (same car as the 500) is a Sub B, the Fista is a B and the Focus is a C
Are you speaking purely in terms of size? Because this whole line of conversation started on price and build quality and in price and build quality the Mini range is definitely a class up from the fiat and generally near the top of the 'compact' car class. So what is your point exactly? Have you disproven the spirit of my statement and i missed it, or did you just semantically distract from my point by parsing things into goofy minutiae that noone uses like 'bordlerline sub b slash b'? After a certain amount of subjective modifiers you might as well give up on the whole attempt at classification..

I find the build quality on the new vs new (which this car won't be) build quality of the fiat and the mini on par with each other. The controls on the Cooper feel cheap because they are. The fiat doesn't give the tactile cheap vibe like the mini does but the styling is definitely european (what is with this faux stuff? It is a european styled car. Maybe not european materials, but european style)

To me the cheapness scale they are a on par. Chasis about equal, interior quality leans toward the Fiat and the Interior design leans toward the mini. This is my non-owner, test drive on occasion opinion. The smart seems very well built but it is funky. Nothing wrong with that.

In the end, my BMW may go away, the wife get a 500c with a slush box. I have the wife's Rav4L as a daily and we buy a truck/big suv to actually do work with. But given my job I have an F450 flat bed, 5th wheel trailer and a short bed chevy at my disposal anytime I need them, so....

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltraDork
4/24/13 4:29 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
No, the Fiat is a Sub B and the Mini is borderline Sub B/B class. A Ford KA (same car as the 500) is a Sub B, the Fista is a B and the Focus is a C
Are you speaking purely in terms of size? Because this whole line of conversation started on price and build quality and in price and build quality the Mini range is definitely a class up from the fiat and generally near the top of the 'compact' car class. So what is your point exactly? Have you disproven the spirit of my statement and i missed it, or did you just semantically distract from my point by parsing things into goofy minutiae that noone uses like 'bordlerline sub b slash b'? After a certain amount of subjective modifiers you might as well give up on the whole attempt at classification..

I have no dog in this fight. I like all the cars in their own way, even the SMART. I don't own or would want to own any of them, but that doesn’t make them inherently good or bad, they just don't suit me needs. All I was doing was correcting the segment classification which you stated in your post. Sub B, B, C, CD, D etc. are industry categorization of vehicle size that's all.

racerdave600
racerdave600 Dork
4/24/13 5:12 p.m.

I own a Cooper S, so maybe I'm not a good choice to comment. But I've driven a 500 and have a good friend with an '09 NA MINI. To me, they are not in the same class. The NA Cooper is faster than the 500, and fit and finish is far ahead of the Fiat. They truly are not in the same class in that regard.

Having said that, the Fiat was a blast to drive. I'd own either, but give the nod to the Cooper. For what it's worth, the MINI reliability problems are blown way out of proportion. It's no worse than most other cars, and far better than my E36 and VW's were. They're not perfect, but nothing horrible either.

As for the SMART...um...no...and leave it at that.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/24/13 6:05 p.m.
racerdave600 wrote: I own a Cooper S, so maybe I'm not a good choice to comment. But I've driven a 500 and have a good friend with an '09 NA MINI. To me, they are not in the same class. The NA Cooper is faster than the 500, and fit and finish is far ahead of the Fiat. They truly are not in the same class in that regard. Having said that, the Fiat was a blast to drive. I'd own either, but give the nod to the Cooper. For what it's worth, the MINI reliability problems are blown way out of proportion. It's no worse than most other cars, and far better than my E36 and VW's were. They're not perfect, but nothing horrible either. As for the SMART...um...no...and leave it at that.

FWIW I have picked the 3 of the worst brands for problems per 100 cars.

Fiat and Smart suck equally at 151 problems per 100 vehicles.
Mini comes in next with 139 problems per 100 vehicles.

So they all 3 suck something bad.

Just an FYI this was the bottom of the barrel. VW came in next at 124. Even Land Rover managed a 119. The now US defunct Suzuki...115.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/24/13 6:05 p.m.

So saying the Mini is better than the Fiat is like saying you want a colonoscopy over a prostate exam. One may be better than the other, but either way, you're taking it in the rear.

Vigo
Vigo UltraDork
4/24/13 9:01 p.m.
I have no dog in this fight. I like all the cars in their own way, even the SMART. I don't own or would want to own any of them, but that doesn’t make them inherently good or bad, they just don't suit me needs. All I was doing was correcting the segment classification which you stated in your post. Sub B, B, C, CD, D etc. are industry categorization of vehicle size that's all.

After thinking about it, i believe i was being overly E36 M3ty towards you. Consider this an apology, and thanks for not being too E36 M3ty in your response!

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltraDork
4/24/13 9:31 p.m.
Vigo wrote:
I have no dog in this fight. I like all the cars in their own way, even the SMART. I don't own or would want to own any of them, but that doesn’t make them inherently good or bad, they just don't suit me needs. All I was doing was correcting the segment classification which you stated in your post. Sub B, B, C, CD, D etc. are industry categorization of vehicle size that's all.
After thinking about it, i believe i was being overly E36 M3ty towards you. Consider this an apology, and thanks for not being too E36 M3ty in your response!

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/26/13 1:58 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: So saying the Mini is better than the Fiat is like saying you want a colonoscopy over a prostate exam. One may be better than the other, but either way, you're taking it in the rear.

I find this lack of debate disturbing.

Vigo
Vigo UltraDork
4/26/13 9:11 p.m.

Personally, i would have made a fake account to roll out those troll attempts, might have helped.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/27/13 11:54 p.m.
Vigo wrote: Personally, i would have made a fake account to roll out those troll attempts, might have helped.

futurely noted

mad_machine
mad_machine MegaDork
4/28/13 12:39 p.m.
Flight Service wrote:
Flight Service wrote: So saying the Mini is better than the Fiat is like saying you want a colonoscopy over a prostate exam. One may be better than the other, but either way, you're taking it in the rear.
I find this lack of debate disturbing.

Colonscopy is better than a prostate exam. I get the scope every couple of years.. the drugs are good

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
4/29/13 8:44 a.m.
mad_machine wrote:
Flight Service wrote:
Flight Service wrote: So saying the Mini is better than the Fiat is like saying you want a colonoscopy over a prostate exam. One may be better than the other, but either way, you're taking it in the rear.
I find this lack of debate disturbing.
Colonscopy is better than a prostate exam. I get the scope every couple of years.. the drugs are good

So now we know which one is the mini

MichaelYount
MichaelYount Reader
5/10/13 9:10 a.m.
Zomby Woof wrote: Why is a MINI worth 100% (or $10k) more than a 500?

Because buyers will pay that much more for it.

Chris_V
Chris_V UltraDork
5/10/13 9:42 a.m.
Swank Force One wrote: Cars in this segment suck unless you're willing to pony up for the Mini S or the 500 Abarth. (Shudders.)

I disagree, after living with my Non S Cooper for a couple years. And my Cooper is not a base model, either, it's a non-S but it has the Sport package, Premium package and a few other bells and whistles to make it a nice place to live and it's more than fast enough for a runabout.

BTW, about reliability, the only time mine has been in the shop has been for scheduled maintenance and when it was in it got the thermostat recall taken care of (though it hadn't been a problem)

ShadowSix
ShadowSix HalfDork
5/10/13 10:03 a.m.

I like the Mini and 500, though the NA version of the Mini is a lot more engaging than the NA version of the 500, which frankly just feels like a car, not enthusiast oriented at all. I drove the 2nd-Gen Smart in Germany, I'm not sure it's 100% the same here, but that car was dangerous at highway speeds. I know nothing about the iQ, but it is adorable.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltimaDork
5/10/13 5:24 p.m.

Let's just build new-old Mini Mokes and be done with it.

banzaitoyota
banzaitoyota Reader
5/10/13 7:39 p.m.

abarth

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