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Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
12/26/17 2:40 p.m.

I asked a vaguely similar question last month but didn't know what exactly we were dealing with.  Now i have the vehicle here to know what we're looking at, which is a:

2011 Subaru Forester with C as the 8th digit of the VIN.  This means 2.5 PZEV and is an FB25 engine.  timing chains, not a belt like the older EJ's.

The wikipedia tells me the FB25 is a 2011+ Forester and 2013+ Legacy engine.  

Pricing 2011-12-13 Forester engines is around $2000.  pricing for 2013 legacy engines, also FB25 Vin C engines, is $600-1000.  These prices are from LKQ with a 6 month warranty on 50-70k mile units.  

Does anyone know any reason why an FB25 from a 13 legacy isnt the same as one from a 13 forester, which are also listed as fitting the 11 forester, would be different on a long block level?  Subarus are like legos, so I'm assuming something silly like maybe the forester intake is taller leading the interchanges on complete engines to be model specific, while the long block is the same.  I'm not seeing any reason why the long block would be different.  I don't want to end up with a brick though.  

The Forester is very nice, the only real problems besides the engine is boned is a cracked reflector on the back bumper.  It has a very nice clean body, nice black leather interior, nice hitch, and has been garaged and one owner since new.  one owner who didn't bother checking the oil ever, hence needing an engine.  It has brand new front CV shafts and was otherwise maintained.  I could almost see keeping it and selling the WRX, or keeping both subies and getting rid of something else, or selling the Forester repaired because the blue book is around 8 grand.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/26/17 4:17 p.m.

The FB engine (2.0 and 2.5) are interchangeable block and head wise, the peripherals changed though from 2011-2013 & 2014-2017. Also, the fb20 and 25 had oil consumption issues in the early years. Most blocks were replaced by subie. Might be a long shot, but you could call to see if you can get a free long block. 

I can assure you though, the canbus systems do not play together. So each system must stay with each peripheral. 

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
12/26/17 4:37 p.m.

Thanks.  I would leave every sensor and peripheral from the forester with the forester, swapping just the long block.  Looks like i can get one from a 2013 legacy for right around $800 with 60k and 6 month warranty from LKQ.  My chiropractor, who sold me the car, tried to get it replaced but they wouldn’t do anything for him besides $13,750 quote for engine replacement.  Aside of having to probably pull the torque converter with the engine because it is seized, it looks pretty darn simple.  

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
12/26/17 4:42 p.m.

I'd bet on the $800 one working, based on no real knowledge or experience.

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
12/26/17 5:03 p.m.
Robbie said:

I'd bet on the $800 one working, based on no real knowledge or experience.

That’s generally how I operate, but i can’t afford to make an $800 mistake right now so I wanted to be sure.  I’m hoping to be into it for under $2000 including buying new tires and paying to get it towed here today because it was 9 degrees and my buddy has a rollback.  At that point I can reasonably expect to sell it for $7-8000 judging on local classifieds.  If i can pull that off, I’ll have paid for the racecar trailer in one deal.  

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/26/17 5:44 p.m.

In reply to Patrick :

Hey call “Foreign engines”,  those guys are amazing, they have shop techs that work on Subarus, and they offer a refund if the engine is wrong. Case in point- my buddy got an ej205, was supposed to be an ej201. They refunded and gave him the right stuff. http://foreignengines.com/

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
12/26/17 7:10 p.m.

What's wrong with the existing engine?  There's hardly any gaskets in the engine, I've replaced rod bearings in them before.  Most of your expense in engine teardown/reassembly is some bolts and some Right Stuff.

 

 

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/2/18 4:37 p.m.

Bringing this back up for anyone curious or who finds this by searching.  I did buy a $680 2014 legacy engine from LKQ.  The harness is different.  The coils are different(shape size and plug) as is the depth of the plugs versus the cam covers.  This requires the boot and spring from the 2014 coil installed to the 2011 coil with a 1/4” spacer on the coil bolts to make everything happy.  Coolant and oil temp sensors are different.  Mounts are different.  Throttle body looks the same but has a different part number.  Once these items are swapped over everything else is the same.  I checked part numbers on all the sensors and injectors and whatnot and they’re all the same.  So right now i’ve got a 2014 engine with the 2011 harness, sensors and coils ready to go in.  I have the torque converter seated properly(including checking depth to bellhousing spec from Woody’s legacy transmission nightmare thread).  As soon as i pick up the engine off the pallet i can blast the legacy mount off and install the forester ones, rotate the engine so that one converter bolt hole is accessible through the little access hole and drop it in.  

The converter nightmare thread had me freaked out because with the engine locked solid the converter had to come out with it.  

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
5/2/18 7:59 p.m.

The converter thing often happens, I assume, because for whatever reason, engines and transmissions assembled in Gunma have a death grip on each other.  I rarely don't have to chisel and beat and pry to get an engine off of a trans if it has never been out before.  So, I assume that all this fussing may cause the converter to fall forward unexpectedly.  Maybe.

 

Some years also had a little cover under the back of the engine that would grab the converter and pull it out with the engine.  Sneaky little bastard.  The first one I encountered, I put the converter back in and all was well, except that a sliver of aluminum from the aforementioned chiseling and prying and bearing got on the input seal.  So after I got the head gaskets done and the engine back in the car, I found that I had to pull the transmission...

 

Doing stuff for free is SO fun!

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/5/18 5:53 p.m.

put it in today.  Then realized an old dowel was stuck in transmission.  Pulled back out, heated/drilled/pounded the dowel out.  Put back in and bolt it up and realize the flywheel is different diameter.  Derp.  Pulled again, changed that out, and got it back in the last time.  

Monday is ancillary crap.  Intake, starter, radiator, belt, etc

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
5/5/18 6:51 p.m.

So you are getting the fb25 to fit? Are the canbus systems staying in place, or following the new engine?

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/5/18 7:33 p.m.

They’re both fb25 engines with timing chains.  Basically swapping the longblocks out and leaving everything else 2011.  If anything was in doubt or had a different part number then the original piece was put back.  So by all accounts the car should think nothing ever happened.  The only real confounding thing was the spark plug depth.  Same part number plugs.  Either way it’s in and i’m taking Monday afternoon to do all the little stuff, change the oil, etc.  last purchases will be oil filter, coolant and a battery.  Original 2011 battery isn’t going to cut it.  

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/8/18 9:15 p.m.

Intake, starter, etc installed.  Went to put the ac compressor on, the bracket is different.  And my buddy scrapped the old engine this afternoon.  Derp, $40 mistake.  Hopefully i can sell the throttle body that came on the new engine to make up for it.  

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
5/25/18 5:38 p.m.

Finally got time to button things up.  I can say with confidence that yes, you can put the different bits from the 2011 to the 2014 engine and it’ll run as if nothing were done.  Just fired it up, smooth as silk, no SES light.  

So to sum things up, the 2011 engines used are $3000+.  I paid sub $700 for a 2014 engine, swapped over anything with a different part number, had to mix and match the coil packs and boots, and it’s fixed and i now have a running 2011 forester with 134k and a 68k engine.  New belt, hoses, fresh synthetic oil, new coolant, new battery, for under $1500 all in and private party value is $7700.  I’ve supposedly got a buyer lined up for $6500.  

 

$500 forester

$100 tow

$680 engine

$4 oil filter

$8 oil on sale

$20 belt

$30 rad hoses

$2 clamps

$15 coolant

$40 compressor bracket

$60 battery

 

sitting at $1459 right now plus however many hours of labor.  Probably about 12. 

Pete Gossett
Pete Gossett MegaDork
5/25/18 8:48 p.m.

In reply to Patrick :

Congrats! Not a bad hourly wage...

dustin
dustin New Reader
8/13/18 10:19 a.m.

Hey Patrick,

Stumbled upon your post a few days ago and I am in the same exact position with a 2011 Forester. The only thing I could find anywhere was your thread about using an engine other then the expensive timebombs! I don't have the cash to swap in another 11-13 engine and it sounds like that wouldn't be a great idea anyway as it will likely have the same oil issues etc.. I found a 2014 Legacy engine on LKQ that looks pretty nice and am about to order it. I am not sure if they usually come with the coil packs on the engine that need to be mixed and matched, I guess that is usually a standard thing that is included when getting an entire "engine assembly" from LKQ? Is there anything else specific you thnk I need to know or parts I need to get? Mine was seized from lack of oil, then I was able to start it a few days later after adding some oil, I can run it now but it sounds like metal on metal clanking really bad mostly in the bottom end, no power, and one of the head gaskets went bad last time I ran it (steam and coolant spray out when its running), tons of metal particles in the oil filter and oil, flickering oil light etc..)

Is it as simple as getting a cherry picker, separating the old one engine from the transmission, lifting the old one out, swapping the legacy mounts to forester mounts from the old engine, swapping the flywheels from the old engine to the new engine, swapping the intake old engine to new engine, then a few sensors from the old to the new (I guess I will see which ones when I look at it) and then drop the new engine in, bolt it to the transmission, just reconnect everything to the 2011 chasis and it should work? Sounds like it is only going to take some time and some hand tools? (was nervous if I would have to weld the mounts or anything like that)

Thank you so much for reading Patrick, this is my families only car and we are low on funds so I am very nervous about spending the money on the legacy motor so just wanted to run this by you and see if you had anything specific that had to be done.. I have never done an engine swap before but have removed engines and done just about everything else non-internal.

84FSP
84FSP SuperDork
8/13/18 11:08 a.m.

Love that you banged this out on the cheap with some research.  

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
8/13/18 11:24 a.m.

In reply to dustin :

It’s that easy.  The power steering and air conditioning lines don’t need removed, just flop the power steering pump to the passenger side and ac to the left.  The exhaust unbolts from the heads with 6 nuts and will hang just enough to remove the engine without disconnecting any pipes. Lkq leaves the coils in place.  I used an m8 nut i believe to space the coil body off the cam cover and slightly longer bolts.  But that which i outlined(engine harness, throttle body, coil packs, flywheel, air conditioning bracket and motor mounts) are the only differences that need addressed.  It looks like they changed crankcase ventilation parts around but but that has no bearing on the engine installation.   I used basic metric hand tools.  Definitely take the radiator out to keep it safe and put some plywood across the ac condensor to not hurt that. 

The forester moved back to its original home for my chiropractors 16 year old son, so win win all around. Gave them a discount because I didn’t have to do any title work since it was like they never sold it and just paid me to fix it.  

dustin
dustin New Reader
8/13/18 11:29 a.m.

In reply to Patrick :

Awesome news Patrick, thank you so much for the info.. I will order the engine and keep you posted.. hell I will have to ship you a case of beer if all works out. That is awesome you got it back to your Chiropractors son without messing with the title at all, that is a nice car for a 16 year old! :)

dustin
dustin New Reader
8/17/18 7:10 p.m.

Work begins tomorrow.. :)

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
8/17/18 7:30 p.m.

Good luck.  Post here if you need help 

grover
grover HalfDork
8/17/18 8:42 p.m.
dustin said:

Work begins tomorrow.. :)

you're going to fit in great around here. 

 

dustin
dustin New Reader
8/18/18 7:04 p.m.

Thanks grover :)

slowly getting there, still working through getting the old one out.. stopped for the night on trying to figure out if i can leave the torque converter in and the best way to get the bolts out for it and the headers, have it up and put it in stands in the front for next time.. not sure if i need to take the wheels off to reach those torque converter bolts?

ooh and look what was underneath the alternator

 

... edit

just realized you said I need to swap the flywheels, I noticed the starter is in the torque converter housing in the motor in the car, assuming the flywheel is back there where the starter is, so I guess the pressure plate would be what is attached to the output shaft that is on the engine LKQ gave me.. sounds like you meant I need to reuse that pressure plate? Would I leave the torque converter mounted to the car and just swap out the old and new pressure plates then drop the engine in and bolt it up to the torque converter that never leaves the car? Sorry if I worded it really confusingly! :)

 

sorry for my ignorance I have only gone this far in manual cars where the flywheel and starter is directly on the output shaft of the engine.. maybe this set up is how all automatics work?

dustin
dustin New Reader
8/20/18 11:02 p.m.

Got it out and on the stand, swapping over the items Patrick mentioned.. maybe will have it ready to put in tomorrow night with any luck!

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
8/21/18 7:25 a.m.

Did it still spin?  Torque converter bolt access is through a rubber plug on the block below the intake manifold around 11 o’clo If you are looking at the front of the engine.  If you had to remove the converter, search for woody’s post about seating a subaru torque converter and the specs from bellhousing depth measurements. 

There is no pressure plate in an automatic.  You have the flywheel and the torque converter, the starter drives the ring gear on one of them. In this case ring gear is on the converter.  I left the wheels on for the entire process.

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