The Electric Bluebird Wanderlodge

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

Additionally using the ratio payload /gross vehicle weight a rv can use a low ratio like a potato chip truck - low weight payload allows a higher vehicle weight for a gross weight.

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

I am happy to be a guinea pig when the time is right. These are stimulating thoughts and I don't have enough knowledge of what's involved to be afraid.  Recipe for success. 

In reply to jh36 :

Our city has EV buses. Although those tend to last 40 years or more.  Last time I drove a city bus it was from the early 70's in Texas. ( no rust) still the original chassis, tranny, engine, etc. Air conditioning lasted 1 or maybe 2 days between charges.   But we used them for the state fair here in Minnesota.  From 5:00 am until midnight.  Loaded with up to 120 passengers. Driven as fast as possible to and from various parking lots and church's. Etc. to the middle of the fair grounds and back.  If I was real lucky I got a 9am 3 minute bathroom break and again at noon.  
    My point is they seem indistructable. 

How aerodynamic can we make an RV? Most of them have the wind resistance of a literal brick, is there an available chassis to junk out that can get a Cd less than 0.40?

Next up for the GRGRV (GrassRoots Green RV(TM)) I personally think it's clear we have to go for a salvaged bus with those Lithium Iron Phosphate packs, and we gotta have a large number of energy generation methods. But we're GRM, we gotta be cheap because we have better things to spend money on- and we gotta be ready for if our bus chassis doesn't have the motors or the inverters needed to power them. For that reason alone, we should always poke around for large Brushed DC motors that we can run instead; we would loose any chance of regen, but keeping it DC would improve some efficiencies and really keep our power electronics simple, and would allow for huge manual transmissions for efficiency.

I've actually got plans for wind generators that can be set up/broken down, and solar keeps dropping in price all the time (and their MPPT controllers keep getting cheaper) so you could reasonably go a little distance hopping park to park to charge up off renewable and grid. If you add maybe a basic diesel generator for more power and heat, or something goofy (and cool) like a sail...

In reply to jh36 :

Anyone consider equipping a small generator instead of batteries, much like the locomotives use?

wmc beat me to it...

I wonder if a scaled down version of a diesel-electric locomotive exists?

In reply to wmcmenna :

The efficiency deficits stack up enough that a small gen. cannot supply enough power to not need a rather large battery bank. 
Keeping the charge trickling in (albeit slower than it's going out!) running a generator to extend the range has always seemed to be the better plan than starting and stopping and varying the rpm at an ICE, they way "they" decided hybrids should be built!

WillG80 said:

wmc beat me to it...

I wonder if a scaled down version of a diesel-electric locomotive exists?

IIRC, the Chevrolet Volt operates much more like a scaled down diesel-electric locomotive than a prius style hybrid.  The engine is there to charge the battery pack and only powers the wheels in certain situations (high speed highway travel for example).  And didn't the BMW i3 have a gas "range extender" module available? 

Are you thinking of driving the  EV bus to a campsite or racetrack to spend the weekend and recharge there .    How long would it take to recharge at 500-1000 amp service.

and what is the most power a charger can put out if not a Tesla Supercharger ?

 It will be interesting to see what people do with surplus EV city buses and school buses in a few years...

californiamilleghia said:

Are you thinking of driving the  EV bus to a campsite or racetrack to spend the weekend and recharge there .    How long would it take to recharge at 500-1000 amp service.

and what is the most power a charger can put out if not a Tesla Supercharger ?

 It will be interesting to see what people do with surplus EV city buses and school buses in a few years...

 

Or what about using multiple chargers? I believe they used a shared service from the utility, but I'm not sure if the upper charging limit is a function of that service amperage or the charger itself. 

67LS1 said:

Personally I feel like the best implementation of battery powered vehicles is in vocational trucking.

Cement mixers, dump trucks, local delivery trucks, school buses, etc. Even contractors in pickups and vans once they get over the range anxiety. Vehicles that need 100-200 miles of range in a day and return to the same place each night. That will make it easier for them to have their own charging infrastructure and eliminate them having to use a public charger in a parking lot somewhere.

As STM317 stated above, the battery packs required to move a 80,000 lb truck for any distance are going to be huge and heavy. This cuts into payload which skews the economics of the whole operation. And having a driver sit for long recharges isn't going to pencil out wage-wise. 

I see long haul trucking going with hydrogen. The trucks will be lighter and the fueling infrastructure can be strategically placed at truck stops along the interstates. 

Just my opinions. 
 

 

My humble opinion is hydrogen isn't going to work. Not as long as 4 stroke ICE's are used.  The simplicity and efficiency  of an Electric motor compared to that of an internal combustion motor ( and it really hurts me to admit it)   Is what will prevent it.   
   A 4 stroke motor can only generate  power during one of the 4 strokes. The other three strokes are setting it up or dealing with the waste.   Plus pistons that stop and start, changing direction  with every stroke.  Connecting rods to translate piston movement to crankshaft rotation?  Camshafts to open and close valves according to need and can only reach peak efficiency at a relatively narrow band of power unless an extra camshaft is used to alter performance.   Then only changing one aspect of valve control.  Fuel mixing devices, exhaust dealing tubing with a way to reduce pollution a little bit. 
     An electric motor doesn't even need a transmission and it's a simple straight shaft with wires wrapped around it .  
  I love a V12. For its complex combination of parts to play with.  But it depends on too much outside stuff to make it independent.  Not many of us have oil wells and refineries in our back yards. But the sun shines and the wind blows everyplace.  

frenchyd said:

67LS1 said:

Personally I feel like the best implementation of battery powered vehicles is in vocational trucking.

Cement mixers, dump trucks, local delivery trucks, school buses, etc. Even contractors in pickups and vans once they get over the range anxiety. Vehicles that need 100-200 miles of range in a day and return to the same place each night. That will make it easier for them to have their own charging infrastructure and eliminate them having to use a public charger in a parking lot somewhere.

As STM317 stated above, the battery packs required to move a 80,000 lb truck for any distance are going to be huge and heavy. This cuts into payload which skews the economics of the whole operation. And having a driver sit for long recharges isn't going to pencil out wage-wise. 

I see long haul trucking going with hydrogen. The trucks will be lighter and the fueling infrastructure can be strategically placed at truck stops along the interstates. 

Just my opinions. 
 

 

My humble opinion is hydrogen isn't going to work. Not as long as 4 stroke ICE's are used.  The simplicity and efficiency  of an Electric motor compared to that of an internal combustion motor ( and it really hurts me to admit it)   Is what will prevent it.   
   A 4 stroke motor can only generate  power during one of the 4 strokes. The other three strokes are setting it up or dealing with the waste.   Plus pistons that stop and start, changing direction  with every stroke.  Connecting rods to translate piston movement to crankshaft rotation?  Camshafts to open and close valves according to need and can only reach peak efficiency at a relatively narrow band of power unless an extra camshaft is used to alter performance.   Then only changing one aspect of valve control.  Fuel mixing devices, exhaust dealing tubing with a way to reduce pollution a little bit. 
     An electric motor doesn't even need a transmission and it's a simple straight shaft with wires wrapped around it .  
  I love a V12. For its complex combination of parts to play with.  But it depends on too much outside stuff to make it independent.  Not many of us have oil wells and refineries in our back yards. But the sun shines and the wind blows everyplace.  

It's not likely to be in passenger vehicles, but I'm pretty convinced that Hydrogen is going to play a role in transportation in the future. It just remains to be seen how expansive that role is. The sun may shine and the wind may blow, but neither one happens consistently enough to rely on for power generation without storage options. And Hydrogen or other liquid fuels actually make pretty good storage options.

Using hydrogen in an ICE is also cheaper and easier for OEMs to implement than battery or hydrogen fuel cell electric. I see this as a stepping stone that's likely to be used in applications where batteries aren't the best fit. This will allow OEMs to dip their toes into carbon neutral options without radical redesign of their equipment or operating procedures. The engines look familiar, fit in the same places, and fuel in similar ways. Hydrogen production and fueling infrastructure are the obvious hard parts, but there's an awful lot of money being spent to pay lots of very smart people to work on overcoming those hurdles in increasingly efficient ways everyday.

And that build out of infrastructure would support any future expansion of hydrogen into fuel cells, etc if they can become financially viable. And that's really the best outcome I think since they're more efficient than ICE, and better suited for many working applications than batteries.

There was actually a line at the local hydrogen "gas station" near my house ,

4 cars !

This was in Torrance , Ca across the street from the old Toyota headquarters , I am sure Toyota gave employees a good deal to get them out on the road......

In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, the i3 extender powers the electric motor when the battery gets too low.  Much like this, I wonder if a much smaller diesel could run a generator big enough to power an electric motor big enough to push a Blue Bird Wonderlodge.  This set up would be replacing either the Detroit or CAT that came in them

Electric logging trucks to be tested on Island - Aldergrove Star

I thought this was interesting. The theory is that a logging truck climbs very steep hills empty, using battery power, but comes back down fully loaded with very high regenerative forces which could reduce or even eliminate the need for plugging in. Not that it would help a big fat heavy pig like a Wanderlodge.

STM317 said:

frenchyd said:

67LS1 said:

Personally I feel like the best implementation of battery powered vehicles is in vocational trucking.

Cement mixers, dump trucks, local delivery trucks, school buses, etc. Even contractors in pickups and vans once they get over the range anxiety. Vehicles that need 100-200 miles of range in a day and return to the same place each night. That will make it easier for them to have their own charging infrastructure and eliminate them having to use a public charger in a parking lot somewhere.

As STM317 stated above, the battery packs required to move a 80,000 lb truck for any distance are going to be huge and heavy. This cuts into payload which skews the economics of the whole operation. And having a driver sit for long recharges isn't going to pencil out wage-wise. 

I see long haul trucking going with hydrogen. The trucks will be lighter and the fueling infrastructure can be strategically placed at truck stops along the interstates. 

Just my opinions. 
 

 

My humble opinion is hydrogen isn't going to work. Not as long as 4 stroke ICE's are used.  The simplicity and efficiency  of an Electric motor compared to that of an internal combustion motor ( and it really hurts me to admit it)   Is what will prevent it.   
   A 4 stroke motor can only generate  power during one of the 4 strokes. The other three strokes are setting it up or dealing with the waste.   Plus pistons that stop and start, changing direction  with every stroke.  Connecting rods to translate piston movement to crankshaft rotation?  Camshafts to open and close valves according to need and can only reach peak efficiency at a relatively narrow band of power unless an extra camshaft is used to alter performance.   Then only changing one aspect of valve control.  Fuel mixing devices, exhaust dealing tubing with a way to reduce pollution a little bit. 
     An electric motor doesn't even need a transmission and it's a simple straight shaft with wires wrapped around it .  
  I love a V12. For its complex combination of parts to play with.  But it depends on too much outside stuff to make it independent.  Not many of us have oil wells and refineries in our back yards. But the sun shines and the wind blows everyplace.  

It's not likely to be in passenger vehicles, but I'm pretty convinced that Hydrogen is going to play a role in transportation in the future. It just remains to be seen how expansive that role is. The sun may shine and the wind may blow, but neither one happens consistently enough to rely on for power generation without storage options. And Hydrogen or other liquid fuels actually make pretty good storage options.

Using hydrogen in an ICE is also cheaper and easier for OEMs to implement than battery or hydrogen fuel cell electric. I see this as a stepping stone that's likely to be used in applications where batteries aren't the best fit. This will allow OEMs to dip their toes into carbon neutral options without radical redesign of their equipment or operating procedures. The engines look familiar, fit in the same places, and fuel in similar ways. Hydrogen production and fueling infrastructure are the obvious hard parts, but there's an awful lot of money being spent to pay lots of very smart people to work on overcoming those hurdles in increasingly efficient ways everyday.

And that build out of infrastructure would support any future expansion of hydrogen into fuel cells, etc if they can become financially viable. And that's really the best outcome I think since they're more efficient than ICE, and better suited for many working applications than batteries.

We agree that hydrogen isnt the best fit for cars.  The key number is 31. Thirty one miles per day is the average  distance Americans travel.    So 200 mile range is actually plenty.  
   Using the battery as back up if the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.  The typical house can last a day or two.  Maybe a bit longer because even on a cloudy day solar panels collect energy.   And once above 4 mph a permanent magnet wind generator is producing power.   
    Now for urban delivery trucks/ buses ?  1-200  miles a day is about maximum. That represents over 5 hours of driving.   Diesel engines weigh about 6-8000 pounds in those. Plus about 6-800 pounds for the transmission.  
     The differentials weigh about what an electric motor  would weigh. + or -  and would be a cakewalk to provide the differential speed required in corners. 
     So a 7-9000 pound battery should deliver that range.  
  Over the road  I can easily see a quick disconnect battery pulled out by an electric  forklift. ( 12,000 capacity is off the shelf. And 20,000 are available)  and replaced with a freshly charged one.   Truck stops could easily be changed to swap batteries.  Swapping batteries would be faster than filling the fuel tanks on diesels. With a big wind generator and solar panels. All connected to the existing grid. 
    We aren't talking about inventing things that don't already exist or any real new network being set up.   
     

frenchyd said:

    Now for urban delivery trucks/ buses ?  1-200  miles a day is about maximum. That represents over 5 hours of driving.   Diesel engines weigh about 6-8000 pounds in those. Plus about 6-800 pounds for the transmission.  
     The differentials weigh about what an electric motor  would weigh. + or -  and would be a cakewalk to provide the differential speed required in corners. 
     So a 7-9000 pound battery should deliver that range.  
    

No truck diesel is 6-8000 lbs. A Cummins ISL (which is probably what's in your bus) weighs about 1500-1700lbs depending on configuration. Even if you add 500lbs of aftertreatment and DEF tank, it's still around 2000-2100lbs for the diesel in a medium duty application like a bus, box truck, etc.

For large semis, you're looking at 12-15L engines that weigh in the 3k ballpark.

Battery swapping is great on paper, but falls short in reality. Nobody really wants it. Tesla tried it and closed the facility due to lack of use. The battery is the most critical and expensive component of an electric vehicle. Lets say that you just paid comfortably into 6 figures for an EV semi. Would you risk swapping out your new, $75k battery for one from who knows where, that has been through who knows what and has who knows how much usable capacity left? Nope.

BetterPlace made a good run at battery swapping with a multibrand lease model, using a single shared battery design to rule them all.

It turns out no manufacturer wanted to build a car that's designed around a 3rd party battery.

STM317 said:

frenchyd said:

    Now for urban delivery trucks/ buses ?  1-200  miles a day is about maximum. That represents over 5 hours of driving.   Diesel engines weigh about 6-8000 pounds in those. Plus about 6-800 pounds for the transmission.  
     The differentials weigh about what an electric motor  would weigh. + or -  and would be a cakewalk to provide the differential speed required in corners. 
     So a 7-9000 pound battery should deliver that range.  
    

No truck diesel is 6-8000 lbs. A Cummins ISL (which is probably what's in your bus) weighs about 1500-1700lbs depending on configuration. Even if you add 500lbs of aftertreatment and DEF tank, it's still around 2000-2100lbs for the diesel in a medium duty application like a bus, box truck, etc.

For large semis, you're looking at 12-15L engines that weigh in the 3k ballpark.

Battery swapping is great on paper, but falls short in reality. Nobody really wants it. Tesla tried it and closed the facility due to lack of use. The battery is the most critical and expensive component of an electric vehicle. Lets say that you just paid comfortably into 6 figures for an EV semi. Would you risk swapping out your new, $75k battery for one from who knows where, that has been through who knows what and has who knows how much usable capacity left? Nope.

 

If I'm not mistaken, can't you check on the status of your battery pretty easily?  So how hard would it be to confirm the replacement battery you get is up to snuff?  Charge and capacity wise?  
    Filling a 500 gallon fuel tank isn't a  10 minute exercise but I'm willing to bet you could swap batteries in less time then that.   Driver transmits data then releases the clamps.  Goes off to the restroom maybe grab a bite to eat on the road.  Meanwhile the Forklift picks up the battery and backs away with it. Sets  it aside, slides  in The replacement battery, backs up and take his old battery in  to the charging house.  
 Driver returns and checks the specs on the replacement battery, accepts it  and clamps it in place.  He's off. No credit card to run because everything is done on line.   
     Aren't most over the road trucks running a pair of 500 gallon tanks?   One would be about 3500 pounds or so?  Plus to the weight of the engines you mentioned you need to add the transmission, driveshaft, exhaust system, radiator,  etc etc etc.  
     Nobody wants it?   How many Tesla Semi's are on the road?  How fast and convent is their battery swap?  So Tesla built one facility?  For the whole country?   And nothing was standardized?  
       I'm suggesting a battery swap at every truck stop in the nation.  With a big wind generator and the roof top of the building and fuel pumps filled with solar panels. Hooked up to the power grid.  over the road trucking companies could  place a replacement battery at every location.  
 Cars will be coming in getting charged, so those  wind generators and solar panels  will be quickly  paid for and start generating profit. 
  That bank of truck batteries will act as storage device. For most of the surplus but excess can quickly switch to the grid to generate additional revenue. 
 

In reply to STM317 :

Don't worry. I tend to forget that most people on here know to discount the made up "facts" he says to back up the ridiculous statements he makes. I'm trying to learn to let them go, but it's hard. 
 

I have posted this before , 

Taiwan has a replaceable battery system already in place for EV motor scooters , 

pull into a "battery station" , they lift out your battery and replace it with a freshly charged battery and off you go , 

How to ramp that idea up to car size is the million $$$$ question ........

In reply to californiamilleghia :

That would work, if one assumes that 100% of the people involved are essentially honest. I don't have the knowledge of how to implement the checks and balances to insure that what you get is as good as what you give up. 
It's the same with another subject... a smart young man I know, and have good discussions with, truly believes that almost everyone, if given the opportunity, will do the right thing. In my dealings with life's interactions, I do not believe that is the case. 
 

In reply to 03Panther :

as far as scooter battery swap , once it runs out you get another random battery ,  not sure but maybe you never even own the battery , maybe they are all owned by the "battery store" , you buy a scooter less battery....

I did not look into if there was a way to recharge at home .....

In reply to californiamilleghia :

That, to me, is too much like "Big Brother" Bill's plan that we don't own our personal computers. Again, only works if we all do what we are told by our (insert word of choice), or everyone involved is 100% honest. I like to pretend I have more choices in life than that. 
Hey! At least that plan does not defy physics (as we currently know) like other plans mentioned. Maybe after we change physics, and invent a practical super conductor. 
We are getting closer all the time, and I've been a fan since the very late '60s. We just ain't there, yet. 

 

In reply to frenchyd :

Most semi fuel tanks are in the 200-300 gal range.

I appreciate the idealism with regards to green energy and trucking, but I'm not sure that you've considered just how much energy it would take to support a truck stop that charges and swaps batteries all day, every day. Each truck would likely have a battery that's over 500kwh if they had 300+ miles of range. And you'd need hundreds of them to be swapped daily at most truck stops. If a truck stop handles 200 trucks in a 24hr period, that's 1MW of power output every day just to charge the batteries of semis with ~300 mi of range. That doesn't include charging losses, or power needed to charge personal vehicles and keep the facility and it's equipment going. So you have to size your system so that it can handle that minimum output even on less than ideal days, of which there are many.

I'm also not sure how we're supposed to create all of this battery capacity when we can't even make enough of the small batteries for passenger vehicles currently. Most BEV batteries are currently 75-125kwh. A semi battery being 500kwh on the small end would mean that you're trading 4-6 BEV passenger vehicles to get a single BEV semi. Want that BEV semi to go 500 miles? Then you'll need closer to 1000kwh of capacity, which is basically 10-12 BEV passenger vehicles. In a world where battery resources are constrained, that's the trade off.

For a century, we've acknowledged that working vehicles need a different fuel than regular personal vehicles because they have different power demands. Those different duty cycles don't change with electrification. Batteries work well for light duty or occasional heavy duty work with long breaks. They don't really work well with constant, heavy duty work like towing, hauling, digging, etc. They discharge too quickly and take too long to charge back up. Throwing more battery capacity at the problem isn't the solution. A different, more appropriate energy source is. That's why companies in the trucking and heavy duty equipment space are investing heavily into hydrogen. They've developed BEV powertrains for their machines, and discovered that it's not a great fit for every use case.