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Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/30/18 1:04 p.m.

According to http://naxn.org/2018/08/30/editorial-competitive-advantage-or-fair-game/ a region copied the already released 2018 Nationals course and ran an event on it. Five of the competitors are signed up for Nationals.

So do you punish the region, the drivers (assuming they weren't involved in course selection/set up), both, or neither? Is it an unfair advantage, cheating, or smart rulebooking? What constitutes the "course" when it comes to pre-running rules, as this was at a completely different site.

Lof8
Lof8 Dork
8/30/18 1:11 p.m.

...when autocross is taken too seriously :P

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
8/30/18 1:11 p.m.

If anyone out there thinks just one set of guys did this after the maps were released they're silly. 

kazoospec
kazoospec UltraDork
8/30/18 1:12 p.m.

Redraw the course (or change the course direction) and call it good?

EvanB
EvanB MegaDork
8/30/18 1:16 p.m.

What do they expect if they release the course design?

Duke
Duke MegaDork
8/30/18 1:17 p.m.

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
8/30/18 1:19 p.m.

Sounds like the fault is with whomever released the course map ahead of the event, not with any one who used the information to their advantage.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair MegaDork
8/30/18 1:47 p.m.

add 2 seconds to everyone who *didn't* use the course information that the friggin' sanctioning body provided?

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
8/30/18 1:55 p.m.

Same course but different tarmac, different temps, etc. 

It won't be the same. 

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
8/30/18 1:57 p.m.

I think they could move one cone in a slalom 6 inches the hard way but not tell anyone.

That would really crush the people who had 'practiced'.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
8/30/18 2:02 p.m.

The good news is that someone just told me that the course was set up at KI Sawyer in Michigan. That's only a hour and a half from my cottage. I didn't even know they ran events up there. I'm stoked. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltraDork
8/30/18 2:05 p.m.

It's not against the rules to copy a course layout, and it's not the same course if it's not on the same lot.  In every other motorsport, it's not illegal to copy a course layout for practice- just sometimes (stage rally) illegal to prerun the real thing within a certain time before the event.

Fair game, stop whining.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
8/30/18 2:12 p.m.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

My wife went through 3rd grade living on KI Sawyer before her dad retired. 

We went up there a few years ago in the summer. A whole different place now. 

NickD
NickD UberDork
8/30/18 2:29 p.m.

As my brother-in-law would say "Its not cheating, its clever strategizing." Hey, don't want people doing this, don't release the course map. Kudos to the people who have the forethought to do it. And I'm sure this SCCA region weren't the only ones doing it, I'm sure there are some tryhards with their own private test pad who have done it as well.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
8/30/18 2:32 p.m.

As Mr Smoky Yunick proved, the line between creative and cheating is a fine one. This falls on that line.

 

Pete

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
8/30/18 2:34 p.m.
John Welsh said:

Same course but different tarmac, different temps, etc. 

It won't be the same. 

This

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/30/18 2:35 p.m.
Duke said:

Who else can smell that?

This is totally legit. Not even borderline cheating. As noted, if you don't want people doing practice runs, don't release the course. It's going to be different enough that the only real information people will get will be basic navigation.

captdownshift
captdownshift PowerDork
8/30/18 2:40 p.m.

Enter a watertruck, have it run the course before those people. 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
8/30/18 2:51 p.m.

I find it interesting that we (GRMers) have viewpoints 180 degrees out from the autocrossers on the solo forums. They are claiming it's a violation of the sportsmanship rule and going so far as to call for removal of the region's leadership. 

I think it doesn't violate the rules as written so it's fair game. If the SCCA is going to release the map, why shouldn't I use it? Road racers can practice (and simulate!), why can't we?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltraDork
8/30/18 3:02 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

My least favorite people in any motorsport tend to be the "I have an ego to protect, look at THIS!  Someone is doing things that are within the rules but I consider them to be RUINING THE LEGITIMACY OF THE SPORT HOLY E36 M3 THIS IS SUPER SERIOUS LOOK HOW SERIOUS I AM EVERYONE" people.

Any chance it's those people complaining?  It seems like those people.

tb
tb Dork
8/30/18 3:08 p.m.

I dont think that I would have done it but I am not at all surprised that some people did.

"Dont be a dick" is too subjective to be an effective tool for self policing; personally I just worry about myself and that keeps me too occupied to concern myself with everyone else...

Tyler H
Tyler H UltraDork
8/30/18 3:43 p.m.

I know you guys can't see me, but I'm clutching my pearls right now.  Totally outraged.  

Driven5
Driven5 SuperDork
8/30/18 3:48 p.m.

Technically legal per the letter of the rules, but also a sportsmanship gray area per the spirit/intent of the rules.

My take is that anybody who is competitive in something is "taking it way too seriously' by the standards of pretty much anybody not competitive in it. Taking it seriously is pretty much the definition of being competitive. So while it's easy for the uncompetitive to mock those who are, I certainly wouldn't want to be one of the ones casting stones.

People who use loopholes to gain an advantage are taking it every bit as 'way too seriously' (if not more so) as are people who vocally oppose the people who take such liberties.  I don't get how anybody can chastise just one side for this, as they're just flip sides of the same coin.

Ultimately, neither of those side is fully right or wrong here, and there is no need for either side to feel slighted if SCCA handles this right and simply turns it into a non-issue.  It is entirely SCCA's error for publishing the layout early and not realizing that one or more regions had events between then and nationals.  They need to suck it up, admit responsibility, and take accountability by redesigning the course...And not making the same mistake again in the future.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltraDork
8/30/18 4:05 p.m.
Driven5 said:

People who use loopholes to gain an advantage are taking it every bit as 'way too seriously' (if not more so) as are people who vocally oppose the people who take such liberties.  I don't get how anybody can chastise just one side for this, as they're just flip sides of the same coin.

That's true, but the loophole side of the coin is a lot more fun- it's where many of the great stories in racing history come from, and it's what pushes new rules in the future.  If something isn't forbidden by the rules, and somebody gains an advantage by doing it, that might be something to address next year... but it's not something to complain about when we all have the same rulebook.

Tom_Spangler
Tom_Spangler PowerDork
8/30/18 4:40 p.m.
John Welsh said:

Same course but different tarmac, different temps, etc. 

It won't be the same. 

Also, recreating a course from a map is never going to be 100%. Two different people layout out the course from the same map are going to lay out two different courses.

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