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bmw88rider (Forum Supporter)
bmw88rider (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/29/20 1:03 p.m.

In reply to Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) :

I see it as 2 fold. 

1. It's probably more HP and TQ than came factory. 

2. The power delivery is great for off roading especially here in CO. 

I would gladly take an EV off-roading vehicle in a heart beat if it was done right with enough range and battery cooling is not a concern. The throttle control and regen braking would be great for positioning the truck where needed. Then the fact that I'm getting the same HP at 5K ft at the bottom of the run as at 10K ft when I hit the heart of the trail is just another benefit. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 1:07 p.m.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

Sorry, I see zero benefit to this conversion. The expense is massive and the power output too small. How is this better than what was in the truck to start with? If they had used a motor with 350hp it would have been a little better. 

Well, it's much more efficient. And it's got more power - the engine that came out had 175 hp. Peak torque is a slight loss but I'd love to see the curve - I'd be willing to bet that there's a significant increase in area under the curve. You could register the result in California which is possible with a motor swap, but gets quite difficult if the engine donor is less than 24 years old.

But more importantly, the Blazer is just there to hold the parts on display. It's not intended to be an example of the ultimate potential of the parts.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
10/29/20 1:16 p.m.
Gearheadotaku (Forum Supporter) said:

Sorry, I see zero benefit to this conversion. The expense is massive and the power output too small. How is this better than what was in the truck to start with? If they had used a motor with 350hp it would have been a little better. 

There's actually quite a bunch, even for a "proof of concept" piece like this:

  1. Lower polar intertia and more "spread out" weight from the pack and motor. No fuel sloshing.
  2. Every- EVERY- K5 Blazer owner I know is on multiple transmissions, due to the weight of the vehicle.
  3. On top of that, the old 175HP 350 can be easily upgraded... but putting more power through it makes the trans weaker, going back to step 2.
  4. Power delivery is consistent and is unchanged despite air density, so elevation doesn't affect it.

Like Keith said, it's more production-possible prototype than guaranteed thing.

 

Driven5
Driven5 UltraDork
10/29/20 2:00 p.m.

The pic of the engine/motor bay is interesting. Everything is sitting in there exactly as it would when mounted on top of the drive unit in a standard transverse layout. So to turn the motor, it would need to be dropped down and all of that mounted to some other structure. Not a huge dieal, but interesting. Additionally the motor is substantially integrated with the gear reduction, such that there would have to be a number of dedicated main components, like a new rotor shaft (that eliminate the differential and mates to the torque converter or directly to the transmission input shaft) and a new end-housing with SBC bellhousing pattern, to make this successfully mate to a conventional longitudinal transmission.  It just doesn't seem quite as likely to be the 'as purchased' condition. Perhaps separate transverse and longitudinal versions will eventually be available though? At least to start with, I would think they'd want the motor assembly as close to standard Bolt equipment as possible, unless they see this really taking off in the hot-rod world...Which, I suppose they might. Honestly, it's got the gears turning in my head for potential applications in both configurations.

For a longitudinal gear reduction in a lighter car, how about a direct-driven Powerglide?

The next question is, how long can it be run flat-out at the track without overheating?

buzzboy
buzzboy Dork
10/29/20 3:30 p.m.

Make it with a smallblock/LS bellhousing pattern and I'd be interested. The easier they can make it for people to install in project cars, the better. I'd be pretty interested if I could whack this in my car and have a quick little town car.

Vajingo
Vajingo Reader
10/29/20 4:08 p.m.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Quite cromulent. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 5:21 p.m.
buzzboy said:

Make it with a smallblock/LS bellhousing pattern and I'd be interested. The easier they can make it for people to install in project cars, the better. I'd be pretty interested if I could whack this in my car and have a quick little town car.

GM showed that particular piece at SEMA 2018. A modular engine that can be stacked and bolted to an LS bellhousing. Problem is, the transmission is mostly redundant at that point. They used it in the E Copo demo car and the E10 show truck but I don't think it's making production.

What you want is the EV West unit that is a Model S motor attached to a gear reduction system that is in the same general footprint as a SBC and trans. It even uses SBC motor mount points, so you just bolt it in and make a driveshaft. This is the sort of thing I'm hoping to see from GM in both RWD and transverse applications.

Jesse Ransom (FFS)
Jesse Ransom (FFS) UltimaDork
10/29/20 5:48 p.m.

This is super cool, but that particular battery is going to be a deal breaker for... a lot of vehicles. Anything that doesn't either have a bed or a few underfloor inches to spare? Hopefully something more modular/configurable is in the pipeline for that.

For a 4WD setup, could you get away with no trans and just a transfer case to provide a low range?

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
10/29/20 6:01 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom (FFS) :

Absolutely, especially since most transfer boxes have a low and high gear.

I too hope they change that battery a little- maybe split it into two separate slabs for swaps.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 6:16 p.m.

It's clearly a battery that was just yanked out of a production car. But I suspect making them more modular adds a bunch of challenges for cooling. GM has probably spent a lot of money keeping that big chunk of energy happy and long-lived, and heating/cooling is a significant part of that. If the new Ultimium batteries are more modular (as they claim to be), that will hopefully open up options. But since they're not in production and the Bolt is - we get a Bolt battery :)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 6:21 p.m.
Driven5 said:

The next question is, how long can it be run flat-out at the track without overheating?

For a C6 Corvette, the answer would be about 5 laps at our local track.

Oh, you're asking about the electric car.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
10/29/20 8:05 p.m.
MrChaos said:

the EV west complete bolt in swaps for Beetles and Porsches are somewhere in the neighborhood of $16k.  So expect 10-12k+ for this.

Uh, EV West's new "crate" engine for traditional RWD vehicles is $30k without the battery or anything.  They estimate $50k for a full swap.

$10-12k for this mostly complete package would be a screaming deal by comparison. GM can sell a Bolt for $35k and make a little money, but not a lot. The battery/power train are likely the bulk of that cost, so I'm guessing around $20k for this complete package, plus install.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 8:36 p.m.

Low volume transmission production is expensive. 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
10/29/20 8:52 p.m.

If transmissions were redundant, I don't think EV West would have bothered with that 2-speed VW unit.  Either leave it in 4th 100% of the time or make the trans a straight shaft to a diff and forget multiple speeds.  Maybe a straight shot from the motor to the diff in a RWD conversion, no multi-speed trans, works with the proper diff gearing.  

Thoughts on servicing the electric motor and related hardware around it might be harder if it was placed where a trunk used to be.  Shouldn't be a lot to do with it, though, when the job doesn't require removal anyway.

 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia SuperDork
10/29/20 9:15 p.m.
pres589 (djronnebaum) said:

If transmissions were redundant, I don't think EV West would have bothered with that 2-speed VW unit.  Either leave it in 4th 100% of the time or make the trans a straight shaft to a diff and forget multiple speeds.  Maybe a straight shot from the motor to the diff in a RWD conversion, no multi-speed trans, works with the proper diff gearing.  

I drove his VW bug a few years ago when he was just getting started ,  we drove down the coast highway and it had good power in 3rd -4th gear , 

But when we pulled up to the R/R tracks by his house , starting off from a dead stop at the stop sign and turning onto the street  over the tracks in 4th there was not a lot of torque  and I had to downshift , 

So I do see a point of having 2 speeds , one for around town , say to 45-50mph and another for 35-100mph,

the old bug was fun ,   it did not have a "big motor" , also not a lot of batteries but good for 70-100 mile range.....

 

grover
grover Dork
10/29/20 9:38 p.m.

Am I terribly off base in thinking that some planetary gears at the wheels and one of these in a light car would make a pretty decent drag car? Isn't that how they make monster trucks accelerate without exploding the axles? 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
10/29/20 9:41 p.m.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

I just watched one of their videos of a recent swap they did on a VW Transporter done up like a Porsche support vehicle with patina and all that jazz.  It had a 2 speed trans and the driver/tech talking about the van said 1st was good for puttering around and running up to 45mph or so, and then 2nd was the 50mph out to 100mph or so gear.  This thing had a pile of battery onboard and some recycled Tesla motor and was good for a quoted 200 miles of range.  I don't remember if it had a clutch or not; I would assume so. 

What I'm wondering is if you had a normal rear axle with a deep gear in it, maybe the top speed is reduced, but you don't need that transmission anymore, if it helps efficiency.  It's probably heavily dependant on variables to where there's no one good answer. 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) UberDork
10/29/20 9:54 p.m.
STM317 said:
MrChaos said:

the EV west complete bolt in swaps for Beetles and Porsches are somewhere in the neighborhood of $16k.  So expect 10-12k+ for this.

Uh, EV West's new "crate" engine for traditional RWD vehicles is $30k without the battery or anything.  They estimate $50k for a full swap.

$10-12k for this mostly complete package would be a screaming deal by comparison. GM can sell a Bolt for $35k and make a little money, but not a lot. The battery/power train are likely the bulk of that cost, so I'm guessing around $20k for this complete package, plus install.

Um, Ev West's deluxe Super Beetle kit is $16,893: https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=217&osCsid=beqgvb641a2r3ppi5rdpke2654

But 90 mile range and 110 lb/ft doesn't exactly get my blood boiling. I'm thinking that the Bolt based package will be in the low 20s as well. If somehow it showed up in the low teens, I'd be sorely tempted to build a Locost or other kit-car package around it.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/29/20 10:04 p.m.

Low teens is unrealistic. An LS3 connect and cruise combo is over $15k.

A replacement Bolt battery (part 24285978) is $13k. That's just the battery, no pumps or controllers. 

jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter)
jerrysarcastic (Forum Supporter) Reader
10/31/20 3:30 a.m.

I’ve watched with interest as EV conversation seem to be inching closer to plug-and-play, so it’s great to see a big player like Chevrolet get into the game. Even if this iteration is missing some things (like a battery you can realistically fit in a passenger car) it’s a good good thing just because it helps move things forward.

Personally I’ve been dying to do an EV swap project at some point and dream of it often, but when I get to doing the back of the napkin math it’s the cost of the batteries that kills the deal every time.  It’s non-trivial

But I like where all of this is going, that’s for sure!

 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
10/31/20 7:39 a.m.

Wonder if I could get on put in my wife's H2 ..... . . .  Oh wait. ;-)

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath SuperDork
10/31/20 8:48 a.m.

This seems really cool for something slow and chill like a giant 70s land yacht. 

ZOO (Forum Supporter)
ZOO (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/31/20 9:12 a.m.
DaewooOfDeath said:

This seems really cool for something slow and chill like a giant 70s land yacht. 

Right?  A four door hard top on bags . . . 

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
10/31/20 11:35 a.m.
DaewooOfDeath said:

This seems really cool for something slow and chill like a giant 70s land yacht. 

A 1972 olds 98 regency is exactly what it needs!!!  That would be really cool. 
 

I had one just like this.  Loved that car!!!  
 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/31/20 12:20 p.m.

The fact that clean-sheet EVs and clean-sheet ICE designs are fundamentally different is going to make off-the-shelf batteries for crates a problem. Grabbing a production car battery gets us what we see here - a form factor that is incompatible with a lot of vehicles. It's easy enough to gang together a bunch of lead-acid car batteries, but with high performance lithium based packs that require temperature management and plumbing it's much more difficult. 

Will there be batter tech changes that sidestep this? Maybe, but I suspect not. Maybe the aftermarket will come out with a modular design. I don't think it will be a major car manufacturer, though. They've got the ability to make a battery in exactly the shape they want it and all sorts of production/assembly reasons to do so. 

I would love to electrify the Cadillac. 

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