Avalon and Lexus LS
Avalon and Lexus LS
In reply to mtn :
Suzuki SX4 fits your listed requirements.
Panther. I bought my very clean low mileage Mercury at a dealer for 3700 after tax/title. I've seen 22mpg in town and it's safe and reliable. Not exciting, but well documented and plentiful.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/295600528665342/
Sedan version of my car. Baller motor and robust transmission. Should hold up to years of beater status and AWD for those godawful Chicago winters.
I see I was referenced. That makes me happy, thanks.
In this recent thread I wrote:
Shopping a cheap car. In my opinion, non-sporty cars with manual trans are where the best bargains can be had. Sure, in a sporty car, like Miata, the manual makes it more desirable but in unsporty cars like a Kia SUV, the manual trans can make the cars very had to attract a buyer and very slow to sell. Slow selling often means low (price) selling.
Both CL and FB can be sorted to show you only manual trans cars. Sort them that way and see what results return. There can be some good deals that way.
In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :
I love mine as well. It does a consistent 20.8 in "town" here in the country. Great on the Hwy., as well. But in its early life, it was in stop and go traffic in homestead Fl all the time. Prolly similar to Chi town. 12 - 13 mpg.
They DO NOT like cities! We share that, so good car for me. But city folks, not so much!
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2171180973018473/
Or just get the wagon. Either way, stupidly safe cars with big back seats for munchkins.
I also feel that $3k is the new $2k. This means that shopping a $3k car will be at the bottom portion of the market. At that price range, these are often purchases of opportunity. What I mean by that is that it is less about seeking out a specific model and more about casting a wide net and choosing the best option that presents itself at the time.
Every car recommended so far could be the right choice if it is in the right condition, at the right price, at the right time.
With that said, I very strongly feel that one way to find that right opportunity is to sort CL & FB to manual trans cars only. Then, set a price limit like $4,100 (since your not going to pay asking price anyway.)
Here is a classic example of a car I would not have found w/o only searching manual...V6 and 5 speed SUV with lots of space and showing California plates (rust free). This could possibly be just rwd. I'll bet this takes forever to sell and then sells for half the asking price. Who's looking for one of these...no one? If it drove here from CA, it could be reliable and well maintained.
In reply to John Welsh :
Nice Jim Kirk focus on those Isuzu pics...
I like the Honda Fit. They seem to be a current "good buy" especially with manual trans because the manual makes them cheaper to buy and funner to own. My only detraction from the Fit is (and I have not owned one) that it strikes me as more of a city car and less of a hyw car. However, for you, it might be right if you're planning no long trips for the car just general city errand. Actually its small size may be a real benefit. Another win for the Fit is that it can be autox'ed.
As you probably know, I am a big fam of the Gen2 Prius, if they can be bought at the right prices. Pasted here is a reprint of a Prius Buyer Guide that I wrote for Pete G when he was recently shopping (and ultimately bought a Honda Fit.)
Prius Buyers Guide:
Gen 1: 2001-2003
Gen 2: 2004-2009
Gen 3: 2010+
Don't buy a Gen1. These are easiest to spot because they are sedans with trunk. The Gen2's are hatch back. They are the sweet spot for value.
There is no bad year for Gen2's but the '06 and newer are slightly better. I have two '04's, one '07 and one '08. The '06 got a slight update on interior. A crinkle finish to dashboard/doors rather than a smooth finish. The crinkle ages better...trivial.
The '04&'05 have a funny quirk where the odometer will only go to 299,999 and no higher. That reminds me, my '04 will be rolling 200k this week. Maybe I'll some day see this quirk.
I have not experienced but the early years are known for the center stack lcd dying. Solution is to replace with lcd of '06 or newer, used unit. Cheap but a hassle.
The interior cloth remained the same and that cloth ages and cleans really well. It is far more durable that it looks like it would be.
Front brakes last 135k miles...really! At 200k, my rears are probably original and due for replacement. Nothing special about brake service other than you should disconnect the battery. Beyond that they are just normal disc brakes.
The tires are 15"ers. I buy Falken brand 65k mile rated tires and they cost me $75 each and that includes mounting. Moral of the story...tires are cheap.
What to look for:
Hybrid Battery: I use the Torque Pro app ($4.99) with free Prius software and a blue tooth dongle, specifically this $12 one: https://www.amazon.com/Panlong-Bluetooth-Diagnostic-Scanner-Android/dp/B00PJPHEBO/ref=pd_yo_rr_rp_2/138-1568574-8011438?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00PJPHEBO&pd_rd_r=dc16038f-98b2-4c98-b5d3-c3e0cfb7d6fa&pd_rd_w=wRQP9&pd_rd_wg=Ha0Mo&pf_rd_p=6c927ef5-6938-465b-8f66-e5683dae7ef8&pf_rd_r=R9DRC807V674C50RZX8Z&psc=1&refRID=R9DRC807V674C50RZX8Z
If you don't have the software, don't sweat it. These cars either do what they are supposed to or they don't. You can just take it for a drive. Watch the screen on the dashboard. As you apply throttle the gas engine will kick in. On this Gen the car decides itself if it is using battery or gas or both. The only input you have is throttle.
Struts tend to wear out for me about 130k. Loaded struts, Gabriels from Rock Auto are right about $100. There is a $30 version too. I don't remember labor costing that much. Pretty common strut assembly. Rears were more for labor due to lots of truck/hatch trim removal to get to top of strut.
Front wheel bearings on these are pretty common for going bad. If done at a shop (who does mine) they book-out at 2.5 hours labor so at $100/hr that is $250 per side and then a $100 part. I replaced my first wheel bearing at about 125k. I bought it used but suspect the original.
Timing Chain! No problem with guides or other things. No belt to change. Not known for needing adjustment.
I have not had the issue but water pump is common. Not a complex water pump other than some coolant burping to make sure there is no air.
In general, they are not known for burning oil. I change my oil w/ synthetic at 10k intervals. I'm gonna be due this week as I roll 200k and I checked it over the weekend...not even down half a quart.
My mpg is a pretty constant 42 mpg. I do not hyper mill and I often drive 76 mph. If AC off (or heat off) I can see 50 mph but I do not even think about it and the car returns 42.
The AC is strong. The heat good.
My '07 has a 3.5mm jack (in glove box) and blue tooth but bt is calls only not music play. For music play I use the 3.5mm jack. My '04 does not have a 3.5mm and it otherwise has the better radio so my guess is they did not offer. Probably not until '06, maybe. A single din, aftermarket radio can be retrofitted
I just drive the damn things and they just keep delivering with very little effort.
Test Drive: I am reminded of another thing. I have been driving these so long that I don't notice it any more but... These cars don't seem to coast. What I mean is most cars when you take your foot off the gas peddle they seem to coast a little. On these, it almost feels like a sticking caliper (which it is not.) However, with your foot off the gas they seem to loose momentum quickly. This seems counter intuitive to good mpg but the reality seems to be that the regenerative braking uses this "drag energy" to recharge the batteries. It seems odd initially so I just thought I would point it out.
Also, the goofy shift lever. On every other car, including things like a Camry Hybrid, when you move the shift lever to drive, the lever stays in the position known as drive. On these Prius you move the lever to D but then it springs back to the center position. Shift to R and the lever again springs to a center position. The only way to get a visual as to what gear you are in is to look at the dashboard screen, near the speedo to see what gear is illuminated. I swear, just different for the sake of being different. It's probably the one thing I would change. Again, it is a quirk more than a real problem.
Happy to answer any more...
John
bmw88rider (Supportive Dude) said:In reply to mr2s2000elise :
That will be a little more than $3500 when it comes up. :)
Hey you don't know what price I will sell it for ;)
if mtn nice enough - maybe I give him for $3000 :)
I mean he's no frenchy LOL
Also...buy the California Acura or California Subaru if you can! Shipping is 2k miles and I'll bet $1k brings it to your front door. Or, go get it over a 4 day weekend.
Some recent small cars w/ manual can be bought cheap like Rio, Versa, Sonic etc but what I want to point out is on these low spec models w/ manual, cruise control was often not standard equipment, if even offered at all.
I mention this so that if cruise control is important to you, verify that the car is equipped with it.
On some, even AC was optional...verify.
In reply to John Welsh :
Prius brakes IME last about 10k miles before the rotors are useless balls of rust, at which point the pads will never mate properly to a new set of rotors, at which point your options are replace pads and rotors again, or live with the pulsation and horrible brake dust.
When you use regen to do most of your braking, the actual brakes never get hot enough to clean the overnight rust off.
How about a zx2?
They aren't too expensive, mine gets 35mpg all the time more or less, has a backseat, could probably do a car seat but I don't know, is a manual, and my 100 lb Anatolian rode in mine a lot. Zetec engine is pretty nice and noted for reliability.
Plus as an added benefit they are pretty fun to drive and faster than you'd think
In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
He said safe. I love BG chassis more than anyone, but they're far from safe when compared to modern options. I honestly wouldn't consider putting a child's seat in one.
Mazda 6, Hyundai Sonata, any Lexus would be my votes. They are overlooked so usually cheaper and less abused from fewer previous owners. Especially if you need to fit a baby seat and dog
In reply to John Welsh :
Counter point (while being in agreement) with regards to casting a wide net and finding something that is in the best shape and with records at a pricepoint. Even though manual transmission options are often more fun and engaging, and (projection coming) their owners are possibly more likely to keep up on things to spec versus automatic transmission models of commuter level hatch spec.
Most vanilla luxo barge vehicles will have been dealership maintained for the first 36 months of their lives. Many also became certified pre owned at some point. The length of time where their upkeep can be a grey area or taken as word is often much shorter.
They're not as fun or engaging, but there's something to be said for something that you get into and it just works. Something that you have no ideas of improving or tweaking. No thoughts of adding a rear sway bar or getting a second set of wheels to fit 205 width 200tw sticky rubber, just peace of mind.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Antihero (Forum Supporter) :
He said safe. I love BG chassis more than anyone, but they're far from safe when compared to modern options. I honestly wouldn't consider putting a child's seat in one.
I have zero experience there so you are probably right.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:In reply to John Welsh :
Prius brakes IME last about 10k miles before the rotors are useless balls of rust, at which point the pads will never mate properly to a new set of rotors, at which point your options are replace pads and rotors again, or live with the pulsation and horrible brake dust.
When you use regen to do most of your braking, the actual brakes never get hot enough to clean the overnight rust off.
This has not been my experience with Prius brakes. They have been great for me.
My first Prius (P1)was bought at 78k miles. At 130k, I replaced the front pads and rotors which I believe to have been originals. The car now has 155k. No issues.
P2 was bought with 110k. Also at about 130k, I suspected bad front brakes. I bought pads and rotors but when digging in, discovered it was really a RF wheel bearing grind rather than brake grind. The pads there looked to be about 50%, but, I had fresh parts so I put on the new pads and rotors. This car now has 175k. I figure that the PO of the car had sometime replaced the brakes. Maybe at about 80k
I put those 50% pad and rotors on the shelf. Then, P4 was bought with 188k. At about 190k I put took those 50% pads and rotors and put them on. P4 now has 202k
I have zero pulsation and no brake dust to speak of. I used Akebono pads which the internet tells me are the oem supplier. $39 per set via RockAuto. I use the cheap but coated rotors which are $17 each (before shipping) via Rock. Cheap parts, long life.
All 3 of the Prius brake exactly the same. None have any odd behavior compared to the other.
In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
I agree with you sentiment of well maintained vanilla. I had a Avalon that was a joy to own. With MTN coming off previously owning a Lexus GS, an Avalon could fit the need very well. An Avalon is after all the finest Buick LeSabre ever built. (I've owned a LeSabre too...nice.)
This also leads me to the site https://www.toyota.com/owners/. Set up a free account there and plug in the VIN of the vehicle you are shopping and the site will return to you all the service records from any Toyota Dealership in the US. I bought that P3 w/ 188k miles but the reason for taking the risk (other than the low price) was that the car had good records of dealer service. Heck, the PO even bought 4 tires at the dealership! I've owned the car for more than 20k miles now and it has proven to be great.
One thing I like about the Prius is buyers of these cars tend to take them to the dealership for service because they expect that non-dealer shops aren't set up for the technology.
My experience with Prius brakes has been similar. We bought ours with just over 100K on the clock and the dealership had replaced the front brakes. We're now around 165-170K with the same brakes and they're just fine. I believe the rear brakes are the originals, and they're also fine. Original belts and hoses as well, and all look great. Honestly, it's about as close to zero maintenance as you can get with an internal combustion engine. All we've done in the 55-60K miles we've owned our 2013 Prius is oil changes and a set of tires. And that includes twice using it to tow a 4X8 uhaul trailer packed full of stuff (honestly it was way over the towing limit) for more than 1,000 miles each trip.
And just to further toss my hat into the "Prii are awesome" ring, there's a lot of articles like this:
https://www.hybridcars.com/toyota-prius-taxi-running-strong-with-600000-miles-and-original-battery/
Well, now after reading on priuschat about a guy successfully autocrossing his 3rd gen Prius, I'm seriously considering one.
In reply to John Welsh :
Your Priuses are also driven a lot, right?
I'm seeing this on most hybrids that are driven the typical 9000-12000 city miles per year, short trips, lots of sitting, lots of casual low effort driving, never working the brakes hard. I also assume that the brake system controller hammers the regen harder in these conditions.
It is REALLY HARD to bed in new brakes on a Prius, because you have to brake even harder than the regen, which is already pretty aggressive.
Mind you, most brake jobs I do in general have 4-6mm of brake pad remaining, but the rotors are garbage. This is not a Prius specific malady, but they have more factors contributing to it.
Mine is driven a pretty average amount I guess. My drive to work right now is pretty gentle, about 15-20 minutes of mostly 35mph roads and a handful of stops. It's mostly been used for long drives and road trips. You can feel where the regen stops and the brake pads take over if you're careful, and it's not too too hard.
Honestly my only issue with the Prius is that it's a car made 100% for efficiency and so there's basically no aftermarket for it. I like to tinker with and modify cars, and having something that I can't do that with makes me twitch, although I'll be the first to admit it would save me money.
How about a Chevy Impala or other GM W body? They'll fit the MPG requirements, crude iron V6s that don't have much to go wrong, massive depreciation is good when looking through he bottom of the barrel.
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