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PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/22/09 10:40 p.m.

So my fiance was driving the 9000 today and was turning into a parking lot when she was t-boned by a retard who decided to mash the gas from a stop when she was in front. The result is a mashed rear ds door. I haven't opened it yet as I'm afraid it may not close.

I have a meeting with ICBC (Provincial Insurance Company) on Monday morning. We really love this car and we don't want to loose it. As I see it, they will either fix it (best case scenario) or write it off (worst case). I also hear that you can buy back your written off car to fix it yourself. I know that there is a really good looking black door that would just need a respray to work.

Also does anyone know what the value of this car is? there are like none for sale and it's in really nice shape save for a a few tiny things.

Anyways, just thought I'd share my pain and see if anyone has any advice.

The damage:

  • Paul
P71
P71 SuperDork
7/22/09 10:58 p.m.

That's not too bad. They should pay for it. Make sure it's the idiot's insurance that's paying, NOT yours. Fix it and drive it.

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/22/09 11:40 p.m.

Take every recipt for the car you have. Make sure the insurance adjuster understands that you care about the car, and you're willing to fight to get it done. Non-enthusiasts really don't understand that to folks like us, it's not because we're too "cheap" to buy a new one. When I was wrestling with the Allstate guy after the woman hit my golf, he actually said "..oh, jeez. Not another "car guy".."

I've often said that if pet owners can be silly enough to call their pets their "children", we should be able to call our cars our "pets".

I lost the battle over the Golf, but with the $1200 bodywork bill in my recipt folder, I'll be able to prove to the next one that I'm serious about that car, should it happen again.

I don't know for sure, but I've heard that even if you take the buyback option, they give it to you with a salvage title. The reason I decided to fix mine out of pocket was to avoid that.

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/23/09 12:12 a.m.

Yea in BC we have one insurance company so everyone goes through them. But yea I will definitely be fighting for it.

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/23/09 12:19 a.m.

Good for you, Paul. Looks like the 9000 was in great shape before the moron hit it. Hold their feet to the fire, let them know it will cost them more in legal fees than it would just to fix the damn car in the first place...

BC? The province of British Columbia? I've heard that Canada is more enlightened about this kind of thing than the US...I'm crossing my fingers for you.

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/23/09 1:03 a.m.

Yea I'm in British Columbia, where ICBC can be good and bad. I'm hoping it's just the door, if so I see no reason why it shouldn't be fixed. The rule is they either fix it or if it's cheaper they'll pay you out based on condition and resale value and sell the car at auction to recoup some money. This is why older cars can be written off much easier, especially if they have parts that are worth a lot used.

Does anyone know what these things are worth? I was lucky and only paid a grand for it. It's in great shape, just needed little things here and there that I was working on. I've only had it for a month but it's so fun to drive, my fiance loves it and and shes not crazy into cars, especially bigger ones (It just doesn't "feel" big when you're driving it). It just has so much room, and it's so comfy and nice to drive and has that odd ball appeal. It's also been really practical with that cavernous hatch.

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/23/09 1:49 a.m.

In reply to PaulY:

I worked for a Corner Worker buddy's indie SAAB shop for a year or so back in the late 1980s. He had "stolen" a 9000 as well (orig owner didn't do the maintenence, and let it go for the lien after he couldn't pay the bill on the tranny repair), and I still recall how great that car was.

The problem isn't what the car's worth, but getting some paper-pusher to understand what it's worth to you. The only thing they understand is money, so if it's a new addition to your fleet, you may not have the paper trail required to show the morons how important the car is to you. In their defense, they probably see ten people a day that want their crap GM Cavalier repaired because it was their first car, or their dead grand-uncle gave it to them, etc. etc.

Add to that the fact that non-enthusiasts often lie about how much they like the car, and just want the insurance check to spend on meth, beer, and overdue rent...and you can see why ins. adjusters are often so reluctant to accept that you honestly, passionately, care about a car so old.

One resource for this kind of thing is Haggerty Insurance's "Cars That Matter".

http://www.carsthatmatter.com/priceguide/

I don't know if something as "recent" as a 9000 will be there, since Haggerty makes most of their profit by insuring antique garage queens, but perhaps it's a start. It's certainly no NADA "Blue Book" (which says my $6K VW Corrado is only worth half that).

Sometimes, I just wish the cops & insurance folks would just let me beat the BMWE36 out of the morons that hit me. It'd be more expensive to pay for the bodywork out of my own pocket, but it sure would make me feel better about it...

Travis_K
Travis_K HalfDork
7/23/09 3:15 a.m.

An appraisal can help, someone I know just got paid $6200 for their 85 golf that was rearended by someone going 60 mph on the freeway (amazingly the damage was only cosmetic and he is still driving it though).

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/23/09 9:28 a.m.

Yea unfortunately I have zero money for an appraisal. What would help are comparable sales as that is what they use to go from, that and millage (150k miles), options and condition. There is only one saab for sale in my area and it's a year older with waaay less miles for 3500. I'll try searching nationally, hopefully finding some decent prices.

motomoron
motomoron Reader
7/23/09 1:54 p.m.

If you don't plan on persuing a personal injury claim against the at-fault driver, that's your leverage right there.

If they waffle about fixing your beloved Sveedish hooptie, remind them while you've yet to go any further than a follow-up with your physician, your attorney has said that it's be a good idea to see an orthopedist "just to be sure..."

A car fixed on time, with a smile, and with a rental to drive while it's being worked on would "sure go a long way to making her back feel better"

MiatarPowar
MiatarPowar HalfDork
7/24/09 12:48 p.m.

Show this to them:

http://indianapolis.craigslist.org/ctd/1283679575.html

That price is recockulous, but maybe that will help you...

andrave
andrave Reader
7/24/09 1:02 p.m.
motomoron wrote: If you don't plan on persuing a personal injury claim against the at-fault driver, that's your leverage right there. If they waffle about fixing your beloved Sveedish hooptie, remind them while you've yet to go any further than a follow-up with your physician, your attorney has said that it's be a good idea to see an orthopedist "just to be sure..." A car fixed on time, with a smile, and with a rental to drive while it's being worked on would "sure go a long way to making her back feel better"

Yeah I've used this technique as well. Being a lawyer helps a lot though, I'd imagine. "Look, I'm not asking for any compensation for all the pain and suffering I've been there. That has to amount to thousands in general damages. All I'm asking for is the actual damage and my lost wages and my medical expenses, plus interest, and I'm asking for it now. But the longer I have to wait, the more time I have to think about all that pain and suffering, and how much its been bothering me.. Did I mention I'm an attorny?"

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/24/09 9:03 p.m.

Update

So I opened the door by mistake today, but it opens and closes well, no issue there. The damage may be worse than I thought though,

Can it just be pulled out or is it terminal?

Ugh I'm soo frustrated right now, I finally get an awesome car for a wicked deal that both my fiance and I love and now cause some some retarded bitch we have to go through this. I know it could have been worse it's just annoying, you know?

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/25/09 12:04 a.m.
Travis_K wrote: An appraisal can help, someone I know just got paid $6200 for their 85 golf that was rearended by someone going 60 mph on the freeway (amazingly the damage was only cosmetic and he is still driving it though).

Yeah, an A2 can take a hit. We talk about that on vwvortex a lot. The lady that hit me was probably still doing about 35, and I was stopped.

I think I'll check into having the Corrados appraised. Atlanta traffic's like ProRally..it's not if you get hit, but when.

Paul, I saw your update. Can you lawyer up enough to threaten to go after her personally? A good lawyer can take the fact that other people value these cars (contacting a few folks in the SAAB Club who have surviving/restored/modified 9000s would provide something s/he could turn into evidence), and could actually turn the fact you've not owned the car very long into an advantage ("..Your Honor, my client had such plans for his own `dream car', but had not yet had the time to begin the process..").

And when she calls the insurance screaming bloody murder about being sued, they may understand how serious you are about this.

Just my 2cents..I'd really like to see you win this one.

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/25/09 12:43 a.m.

Thanks for the advice but it works a bit differently up here. See ICBC is a crown corporation which means it's kind of gov't owned but runs on it's own. Everyone in BC has to insure through them. So we both deal with the same people and they decide who's at fault and what happens. I'm certain determining fault won't be hard. If there is a need for lawyers they provide them and fight for you. I have zero money so private legal is out of the question.

I'm just hoping I can still keep our car. The one variable is value of the car. They use current listings and their own book values. If I have comparable sales that are high enough then they'll pay to fix it.

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/25/09 1:15 a.m.
andrave wrote:
motomoron wrote: If you don't plan on persuing a personal injury claim against the at-fault driver, that's your leverage right there. If they waffle about fixing your beloved Sveedish hooptie, remind them while you've yet to go any further than a follow-up with your physician, your attorney has said that it's be a good idea to see an orthopedist "just to be sure..." A car fixed on time, with a smile, and with a rental to drive while it's being worked on would "sure go a long way to making her back feel better"

Yeah I've used this technique as well. Being a lawyer helps a lot though, I'd imagine. "Look, I'm not asking for any compensation for all the pain and suffering I've been there. That has to amount to thousands in general damages. All I'm asking for is the actual damage and my lost wages and my medical expenses, plus interest, and I'm asking for it now. But the longer I have to wait, the more time I have to think about all that pain and suffering, and how much its been bothering me.. Did I mention I'm an attorny?"

andrave, are you licenced to practice in Georgia? And can I get a GRM discount?

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/25/09 1:26 a.m.
PaulY wrote: Thanks for the advice but it works a bit differently up here. See ICBC is a crown corporation which means it's kind of gov't owned but runs on it's own. Everyone in BC has to insure through them. So we both deal with the same people and they decide who's at fault and what happens. I'm certain determining fault won't be hard. If there is a need for lawyers they provide them and fight for you. I have zero money so private legal is out of the question. I'm just hoping I can still keep our car. The one variable is value of the car. They use current listings and their own book values. If I have comparable sales that are high enough then they'll pay to fix it.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems Canadian law (or at least the ICBC) doesn't make much distinction between the "legal" (i.e., "who's at fault") investigation of the accident and the "practical" (i.e., "what's the vehicle worth") aspects of the incident.

And I apologize for not remembering that you don't have any money at the moment...you actually mentioned that when someone else here suggested having the car appraised. Will this end up in front of a magistrate at all, or will it just be decided by the ICBC's bureaucracy?

Spinout007
Spinout007 Reader
7/25/09 2:03 a.m.

DUDE fight tooth and nail, don't say yes till it's what you want, my dad was rear ended on the interstate on his gold wing, (yeah how do you miss something with that many lights on the back of it) it took em almost 2 months to finally give in, but it was an 86 limited wing, this happened in 97, guy hit him at about 80 mph picked him up and set him down on it's side, basicly the crash bars and saddle bags, the entire right side of the bike is trashed, ( yup still isn't fixed but he's got another one, uses this one for parts, and he always has a spare motor if he ever needs it) but long story short, he got a 5k check to fix the bike and he goto keep it without the salvage title, he just kept telling them their answer wasn't acceptable, get some quotes from a body shop to fix it, and keep arguing, I think his quote was something in the neighborhood of 7 or 8 grand to fix it he settled for 5k and the bike. No lawyer involved, just hold your ground.

A few years ago my wife and I bought a 84 300z, had the car less than a week, and I ended up tagging the rear end of an old lady that failed to yield, I kept telling her don't agree to anything, and to keep fighting (it was her "dream car" book value on the car was almost 8 grand it was an imacculate sp? car, despite the fact we only paid 1500 for it, (it needed some engine work that I did the second day we had it) after a few weeks of arguing with the insurance company, some financial emergency came up, I can't remember what it was but she settled for the 1500 we paid for it. (we were not married yet, so she had the official say so in the matter)The point is their initial offer was like 600 dollars, and when I told the agent to look up the book value of the car, her exact response was there's no way I'm paying that for that old of a car. Last year of the Datsun badges and we haven't found one like it since, at least not one we can afford.

DON'T GIVE IN! If you really love it, fight for it! I don't know about Canada but here they can't do anything without your signature.

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/25/09 2:28 a.m.
friedgreencorrado wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems Canadian law (or at least the ICBC) doesn't make much distinction between the "legal" (i.e., "who's at fault") investigation of the accident and the "practical" (i.e., "what's the vehicle worth") aspects of the incident. And I apologize for not remembering that you don't have any money at the moment...you actually mentioned that when someone else here suggested having the car appraised. Will this end up in front of a magistrate at all, or will it just be decided by the ICBC's bureaucracy?

Ha don't worry about it, I'm just happy to get help and advice on this.

Yes there is a distinction between legal and practical. Legal determines who's at fault which determines the premiums you pay and your driving record. Practical is between you and the adjuster. They tend to go with what the car is worth given comparable sales and i believe the book value. What I paid doesn't come into the equation cause say my dad gifted the car to me, then i'm technically out 0 dollars but I'm out a car worth x amount. So I have a deductible but since the other chick is at fault, she pays it through insurance. So I don't have to lay any money down.

Also the value to fix it is determined either by them or a body shop approved by icbc. Any reputable body shop is certified by icbc to do estimates and repairs. They work from standard rates so it's all on par no matter where you go as long as they are icbc approved.

The issue is they look at the cost to fix, say 2 grand. Then they look at the value, say it's 3 grand. If they can sell what's left of the car through auction for 1500 then it's a write off. Cause they pay me 3 grand and they make 1500 so only out of pocket 1500 as oposed to the 2 grand they would have had to pay to fix it. So i can't change the fix it cost but I need to prove it's worth as much as possible. I just can;'t find any comparable for sale in Canada.

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado HalfDork
7/26/09 2:31 a.m.
PaulY wrote:
friedgreencorrado wrote: Perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems Canadian law (or at least the ICBC) doesn't make much distinction between the "legal" (i.e., "who's at fault") investigation of the accident and the "practical" (i.e., "what's the vehicle worth") aspects of the incident. And I apologize for not remembering that you don't have any money at the moment...you actually mentioned that when someone else here suggested having the car appraised. Will this end up in front of a magistrate at all, or will it just be decided by the ICBC's bureaucracy?

Ha don't worry about it, I'm just happy to get help and advice on this.

Yes there is a distinction between legal and practical. Legal determines who's at fault which determines the premiums you pay and your driving record. Practical is between you and the adjuster. They tend to go with what the car is worth given comparable sales and i believe the book value. What I paid doesn't come into the equation cause say my dad gifted the car to me, then i'm technically out 0 dollars but I'm out a car worth x amount. So I have a deductible but since the other chick is at fault, she pays it through insurance. So I don't have to lay any money down.

Also the value to fix it is determined either by them or a body shop approved by icbc. Any reputable body shop is certified by icbc to do estimates and repairs. They work from standard rates so it's all on par no matter where you go as long as they are icbc approved.

The issue is they look at the cost to fix, say 2 grand. Then they look at the value, say it's 3 grand. If they can sell what's left of the car through auction for 1500 then it's a write off. Cause they pay me 3 grand and they make 1500 so only out of pocket 1500 as oposed to the 2 grand they would have had to pay to fix it. So i can't change the fix it cost but I need to prove it's worth as much as possible. I just can;'t find any comparable for sale in Canada.

That actually doesn't sound much different than the US, except for everyone having the "same insurance". I'll bet that for most non-enthusiasts, it works pretty well.

But of course, the "practical" phase seems to be the same PITA for Canadian enthusiasts as it is for those of us in the US.

There really is a vaccum around the kind of cars that folks like us appreiciate.

They really are worth more than their more plebeian contemporaries, simply because they're better machines...but there still doesn't seem to be a way to explain that to folks that aren't like us. Unfortunately, most of the people in the various auto "support" industries don't seem to be enthusiasts. Dealers, finance, insurance, traffic enforcement...it's sad, but it seems that very few people who see these crates as anything other than an "appliance" actually work in the industries that wouldn't exist if cars did not..

Perhaps the fact that there are so few 9000s to be found in your locality can be turned to your advantage? Yes, the bureaucrats will dither over the fact that there isn't enough data to place an accurate dollar value upon the car, but shouldn't the fact that there is so little data be "proof" that the car is rare-and therefore valuable?

Once again, just grasping at straws for ya here..

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/27/09 11:04 a.m.

So it's official, it's a write off. It his 2 grand in damage. I'm waiting for an estimate and the other person to claim fault. ICBC should have contacted them by now so I'll be calling soon.

This is just soo senseless. I'm upset and surprisingly my fiance (who is not huge into cars) is ever more upset. She LOVED this car, it just clicked with her. Easy come, easy go i guess, this just sucks hard.

I have the option of keeping it and taking 70% of the pay out but I dunno right now, I don't have any means or time or space to fix it myself.

The wierdest part is the parallels between my dad and I. Both of us owned a terrible problematic vw's. My dad and mom got a sweet (79ish) volvo 240 coupe, fully loaded with leather and sunroof and 4 speed + electric overdrive just after they were married. He loved that car until a giant moose took it out on an icy BC back road sending it spinning into an oncoming truck. All 4 of them in there walked away ok. So now we both had two nice Sweedish cars, fully loaded being the first cars bought with spouses and written off early.

docwyte
docwyte New Reader
7/27/09 11:10 a.m.

Wow, that must've been a huge mouse!

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/27/09 11:26 a.m.
docwyte wrote: Wow, that must've been a huge moose!

Haha, it's early, I fixed it for ya.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 Dork
7/27/09 11:30 a.m.

Honestly.... if you get the $2k out of it, and they take the car, i'd call that fair.

How much did you pay for it?

Over here, decent 9000s aren't worth anything. I bought my last one for $900. And with $100 worth of cleaning and some trim parts, it was a peach.

I wouldn't consider keeping it, with that damage, unless the drivetrain was absolutely 100% perfect.

When do you find out the final payout amount?

PaulY
PaulY Reader
7/27/09 11:32 a.m.

Yea i'd like to see over 2 grand too. I should hopefully find out this week. All I can find are two 9000's in Canada and they are 4 years older. In WA there are more but different market. I did find a decent online calculator that errors in my favor. I just need anything to help with the value.

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