Best way to temporarily immobilize without causing any permanent damage.

gearheadmb said:

OP; do you have kids? Because if you do, dont keep a loaded gun around. I had a shotgun go off in my hands at 9 years old because I was playing with it and assumed it was unloaded. Luckily no one was hurt and I just shot a hole in the garage wall, but I learned a lot that day.

As a general rule, I agree with this. There are ways around it. Modern gun safes allow access very quickly. This is why the gun by my bed is a handgun. A finger touch and it pops open. In the meantime, I don't have to worry about the grandkids finding it. 

The other option is to remove the mystery from them. When my kids were really young, guns were kept in places they could not reach. As they got older they were introduced to them and taught gun safety. All of them were allowed to handle the guns any time they wanted to as long as they asked first. From about the age of 5-6 they were going out shooting with me. By 8-10 they were shooting themselves if they wanted to. 

This does a couple of things. One, it removes the mystery and ahh factor. It's just a gun at that point. Maybe super interesting but accessible and they could play with it any time they wanted. It's no longer the forbidden fruit. Just something to be careful with that they know how to handle safely much like any tool in my shop. 

In reply to bobzilla :

By nine I had been shooting a lot too, but mostly the .22. I had been taught all the rules as well. Dad did everything right. But I was a kid. Kids dont really change that much. They are curious and make bad decisions. The gun that went off in the garage was dads 870 12 gauge. I had never shot that gun, dad probably figured I was too little for it, rightly so. But I thought that gun was the coolest one. So when nobody was around I would rack the slide and pull the trigger. Because surely dad unloaded it, he taught me to always unload them before putting them away. But this time there was a deer slug in the tube. Click, cock, boom. After I told him what happened he told me he thought he had it empty. Just a simple mistake, and in my case it only ended up with a hole in the wall, but it could have been so much worse. It has been turned out worse for far too many kids and too many parents that said "Well my kids would never do that." So my guns stay unloaded. I'm a lot more scared of my kids doing what I did than I am of somebody breaking in. But that's my choice, my risk analysis, and everybody has to decide for themselves what chances they are willing to take when it comes to gun ownership. 

But on a lighter note, this thread is cracking me up

OP; What are some ways to handle a problem person without killing or permanently injuring them?

Everybody; Step one is to make friends with a man that owns a pig farm....

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm gonna disagree on handguns being easier to take away from you than shotguns. Shotguns are longer for one and the usage of them is significantly more complex than a pistol especially when we are talking pump action. Pistols are harder to use IMO though as well.

I took martial arts classes where we actually practiced defense tactics against guns, knives, and clubs.

If you get up close, it's easier to grab and control a long arm that someone else is trying to point at you. However, it is easier to strip a pistol out of someone's grip and take it away from them than it is to take away a long arm.

It's easier to say, "shoot and kill them," than it is to actually do it. If the OP or his wife points a gun at someone but can't pull the trigger, it doesn't matter that the attacker can turn the barrel aside easier on a shotgun. It *does* matter that it will be harder to take the shotgun away and use it against them.

One tip on social media...you should be able to use a fake name ( I don't think it's actually allowed, but if you don't change it regularly it should/may be OK).   I adopted a pseudonym on all social media platforms (a loose reversal of my first & last name).  My friends and family figured it out pretty quickly and it's been that way for ~10 years.  It's good because random co-workers or acquaintances don't try to connect on social media.  It does still allow me to stay connected w/my (very large) extended family (and buy and sell things on marketplace).  Make sure you update privacy settings. Unfortunately, if the stalker knows any of your friends/family if they don't have the same privacy settings as you do he still may be able to harass through other people who may share photos.

I've been using blink cameras (from Amazon) for a few years.  They're not very good from a security perspective.  They can alert when one of the sensors gets activated...but the settings on my phone aren't really loud enough to alert you.  And, with false alarms (rain, wind, bugs) I'm not sure if I'd want it waking me up every time a camera gets activated.  On the + side, they're battery powered, automatically store images in the cloud, and there's no monthly fees.  

If you're concerned about a home invasion, there are plenty of simple alarm solutions.  Individual battery powered door alarms that can be extremely loud if a door is breached/opened, hotel-focused door stops or additional door-bars. You can also get long-range driveway motion sensors.  These things may not make a huge difference, but hopefully they'll help you both sleep a little more soundly. 

RE: "immobilize w/o permanent damage", a Program called PPCT (Pressure Point Control Tactics) is marketed towards law enforcement.  Maybe it helps LEOs not 'accidentally' kill persons being taken into custody, or maybe for $$$$ it reveals the lost ancient secret martial arts practiced by the Tibetian master race.

It is part of the Program, but even for HD consider practicing yelling verbal warnings and commands.  Racking a shotgun may be the Ultimate and Final Deterrence, but verbal commands give you infinitely more options; they can be repeated as many times as you feel may be necessary (without emptying all live rounds out of your magazine); and "I AM AFRAID FOR MY LIFE" works as a key word warning to the other guy, plus a legal self-check to make sure that you really are, plus a psychological conditioning cue for what may come next.  Or maybe yelling gives away your position and silent ambush is the better option, I'm not an expert. (NSFW Random Association link to ambush "He's still moving!")

The often quoted YT advice goes something like "you want to have more options in between a gun and harsh words".  
Also, YT advice, the 3x reality-check questions: "Is it legal? Is it moral? Is it smart?"

Much discussion in this thread assumes a shotgun, but repeating previous advice: if possible try out as many different firearm platforms as you can.  Yes, including an AR.  Go with whatever platform(s) you AND your wife find most effective, and it does not have to be the same for both of you (but cross-train if it is not).

STM317's advice for kick-in-proofing the door jams deserves another mention (even if nothing more than really long screws on the hinges and latch plate), also do the classic burglar-proofing "piece of wood in the track of a sliding door".
(Random Association link to classic Ministry, Dream Song "...I don't have bars on my windows, because I don't believe in having bars on my windows....... Do you believe in angels?")

gearheadmb-- I also was going to mention the "pepperball launchers" (Byrna, Umarex, etc.) as a probably-not-lethal option.  Definitely check your laws, some are written specifically as "spray" or "aerosol" so OC pepperballs are not classed the same as OC spray, also CN/CS (tear gas) or mixes with OC may not be the same as pure OC.  Regardless, pepperball/ paintball is MORE likely to be "X with a DANGEROUS weapon", rather than "X with a DEADLY weapon".
There are 37mm launchers too, but simply do NOT go there.  Even if you don't have a dog for the AFT to shoot.  (It's just a meme).

Forget the shotgun. They're easy to aim until the shot leaves the barrel.

The easiest thing to aim is the thing you actually go and train with. You should be doing that weekly, even if you're just doing drills in your underwear at the house. 

I go pistol caliber carbine, AR, then pistol for best house gun. 

Know your state's laws on deadly force inside and out. Go and actually read them. That's the only thing that can inform whether or not you can or will want to shoot anyone. That and a lawyer. 

In reply to Turbo_Rev :

I would do a pistol length AR with the frangible rounds for home defense, but I don't know hat I'd recommend an AR for a first firearm unless you're already familiar with it from military service. 

Has anyone said Taser yet?

Home defense is definitely a situational discussion.  In my case, past my front door are my neighbor's houses across the street, but less than 100' away. 

In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :

and I've got 1/4 mile for one and a half mile for the other direction. Past that is over a mile

bobzilla said:

In reply to Turbo_Rev :

I would do a pistol length AR with the frangible rounds for home defense, but I don't know hat I'd recommend an AR for a first firearm unless you're already familiar with it from military service. 

Nah. I was in the Navy for 10 years and handled ARs/M4s/whatever for the service exactly never. Everything I know about shooting long guns, I taught myself or was instructed by someone outside of the military.

It's not like a pistol or shotgun is so much safer than any rifle that its going to offset a lack of military experience when you light it off in the hallway.

Know how the weapon operates, know how to shoot and train, train, train. 

+1 to tailoring your training and weapon to your specific housing situation.

I'll just leave this here:

Also, I will definitely recommend training to fight with hands. I do BJJ and kickboxing. If I had to pick one, I'd pick BJJ. 

It also makes you very cool.

In reply to Turbo_Rev :

Not jj, still b, but this is what first popped into my mind. 

 

In reply to gearheadmb :

LS SWAP IT

Get a Miata shot gun swap it.

For real, I feel the need to defend my home.

KILL HIM

We sometimes feel this way but don’t want to.  Honestly he’s to much of a Bob Costas to show his face.  Any one can hide behind a phone.

In reply to barefootcyborg5000 :

Brazilians are a graceful and dangerous people. 

Trunk Monkey

Good. A lot of good advice here. Oapfu said most of the things I was going to say. Great. I can make this shorter then. So, the AR platform with the traditional 5.56 round is an excellent choice because even with the standard round they tumble and dont tend to penetrate far after encountering a wall or object, instead dumping most of their energy into that wall or object tending to be stopped by the outer wall of your house if not the inner sheetrock versus pistol rounds or a higher caliber rifle. Second, with a 30 round magazine(assuming thats legal where you reside.) if a bad guy grabs the barrel of the rifle to take it away firing several rounds even if not directly into the bad guy will be a harsh dissuasion to continue to hold onto the rifle and you still have a bunch of rounds left to dump into the bad guy without having to manually chamber a round like in a pump shotgun. Third, a rifle can be shorter than a shotgun, 16 inch barrel vs 18 inch barrel, however both are available in bullpup configuration to further shorten them, making them both easier to maneuver in a house. In my homes configuration I have a ranch that has a long hallway and I have firearms stationed at either end and in the middle. Great advice about kids, find out what they think is your coolest 5 or 10 guns and let them check them out in full safely. Take em shooting, work with them until you are satisfied they understand they are just another tool.

Lets change direction. Look up Target Focus Training by Tim Larkin. Hand to hand self defense that is definitively lethal and can be learned in one weekend. I have not attended his class but I have purchased some of his DVD's. I am not a shill for him. I think I bought his dvd like 10 years ago. His training is geared towards women, I think at one point he stated that as long as a person is over 100 lbs they can use their body lethally against a bad guy(and I am misremembering and paraphrasing the exact sentence) It bears checking out. He lives and trains in Las Vegas so it can't be that bad of a trip I'm thinking.

I think anyone recommending an AR for home defense has either 1) never shot one in a confined space with no earmuffs or 2) ex military who's ear are already gone :).

Those things a LOUD.  2 rounds un muffed and your ears will ring for days.

I don't have any ideas for the OP, threat of any civil lawsuits would keep me from discussing or recommending any plan of action.  Land of free / home of brave and all that.   

In reply to Kendall_Jones :

pistol in the hallway > hearing still gone. 

It's not like you're doing it every day of the week. 

An AR is a TERRIBLE choice for home defense.   The bullets do not "tumble off walls" or whatever that claim was.   
 

That was poor advice, please disregard some of what is put out in here.

Shotgun with the correct barrel pretty much negates the need to aim accurately if shaken.

Also, I may know some large acquaintances locally that might enjoy making someone feel uncomfortable without harm.

KyAllroad said:

An AR is a TERRIBLE choice for home defense.   The bullets do not "tumble off walls" or whatever that claim was.   
 

That was poor advice, please disregard some of what is put out in here.

Ancient muskets on mantels can blow through multiple walls and still be deadly. Do you really think a much more aerodynamic, much higher velocity round is going to stop at a little drywall? 20+ years later I still remember the stories from Hunter education class, JAKE'S day, and shooting safety classes. 

Make a plan, practice the plan. If you don't think you can kill someone if your life depends on it, make a panic room. And remember Mike Tysons advice: "everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face". Make sure you're on the punching side of the stalker/burglar/tweekers plan. 

I'd have to dig out the hard drive to find the pictures, but we took an old desktop computer to the range one day. Surprisingly effective at stopping 45 caliber FMJs. Not perfect, but maybe only a third of the shots that hit penetrated one side at 10 yards. Even less penetrated both sides of the case. 

Well why do you bring this up Rev? Because I mentioned making a panic Room and you probably jumped to "dang that's expensive overkill", but old desktops are free/cheap. If you have a basement room or even a corner of the house, get a few from Craigslist or face place, set them up along side the walls, and get a good heavy solid door with some good heavy physical hardware. Practice retreating to it. If you want to be fancy and extra protective, put a strobe or siren OUTSIDE with a button in the room so it attracts passerby and neighbor attention. 

We have three plans here. One separate plan for upstairs entry, downstairs entry, and if both entries are compromised. We all know what to do depending on the situation. Well, the wife and kids know where to hide depending on the situation, my job is to end the threat. 

In reply to RevRico :

A truly GRM solution.