Brainstorm with me... cheap steel

In reply to Curtis73 :

I know that you're used to dealing with heavy stuff, but 20 chairs at 35lbs per chair is going to be 700lbs on casters, and putting those folded chairs two tall is going to have the center of mass at about your belly button. Are you sure you want volunteers pushing those around and getting tipped on?

Also, In your current design you're cantilevering 175lbs on each pair of arms, without gussets, with the center of mass 2 feet out from the central support. Can your design support 200 ft-lbs of torque on each horizontal support? Your vertical supports are going to be subject to a ton of torque as well, because some volunteer is going to load one side before the other and leave it imbalanced.

Instead of stacking them on arms, why not plan to stack the chairs like books on a bookshelf? You would need a sturdy platform on the bottom, with one good well-braced end-wall for the stack of chairs to rest against. A couple 2x6's for the base, a well-braced end-wall, and you're able to stack a set of chairs one-tall leaned up against the end wall (with a handle on it to move it around)?

Here are a couple ideas for cheap steel:

1 - department store closing/remodeling. A few years ago the Menards by me was remodeling. They had a bunch of 4x4 ft wood platforms with fake grass on top used for a grill selling floor. Each one had nice thick angle iron on two sides to protect the wood from shopping carts and forklifts and stuff. $2 each. I filled up the truck bed. You might have to throw away some stuff on your own, but $2 for 8ft of large angle is not bad 

2 - harbor freight, seriously often times I feel like the tool is cheaper than the metal used to make it would cost me, wtf?

3 - pallet racking. Specifically, this place: www.repurposedmaterialsinc.com/pallet-racking/

the_machina said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

I know that you're used to dealing with heavy stuff, but 20 chairs at 35lbs per chair is going to be 700lbs on casters, and putting those folded chairs two tall is going to have the center of mass at about your belly button. Are you sure you want volunteers pushing those around and getting tipped on?

Also, In your current design you're cantilevering 175lbs on each pair of arms, without gussets, with the center of mass 2 feet out from the central support. Can your design support 200 ft-lbs of torque on each horizontal support? Your vertical supports are going to be subject to a ton of torque as well, because some volunteer is going to load one side before the other and leave it imbalanced.

Instead of stacking them on arms, why not plan to stack the chairs like books on a bookshelf? You would need a sturdy platform on the bottom, with one good well-braced end-wall for the stack of chairs to rest against. A couple 2x6's for the base, a well-braced end-wall, and you're able to stack a set of chairs one-tall leaned up against the end wall (with a handle on it to move it around)?

Well, to call it a "design" is not accurate.  That was a super quick sketchup drawing that isn't accurate at all to the real thing.  Gussets galore, an an up-angle to the pegs that would hold the chairs.  So, yes... my REAL design can easily carry the weight with lots of margin for extra capacity.

I made a similar thing for the tubular back rails for the seating risers using angle for the bases and green sign post for the uprights and unistrut for the cross pieces.  Each side is 2' and they easily hold 400 lbs each, even when the other side isn't loaded.

And the chair cart that someone else linked to on Ebay... that is rated for 700 lbs.  I'm not adding weight, I'm adding size.  Whereas that rack was designed for 700 lbs with 50 chairs, I'll be doing 700 lbs with 20 chairs because they take up more space.  I'm not concerned about a 5' tall rack that is 6x2' wide at the bottom.

I do like your idea about a wood cart though.  Not ideal since they would still occupy the same space loaded or empty.  I was thinking that steel frames would kinda fit inside each other when not in use, but I'll see if I can spare the real estate.

I'm really loving the brainstorming ideas, folks.  Keep them coming.  I love the out-of-the-box thinking.

I can keep an eye out for an ad from the guy I've bought steel from the past 5 years. He gets 10 foot lengths of 2x2 and 1x2 regularly and sells it for as little as $0.80/ft for stuff with a slight bow to it. Would that be in your budget range?

If you want beefy and free, go get treadmills. I got this;

Breakdown took like 5 minutes and sometimes the control boards and trim are worth money  

If you want thinner / lighter material, ikea jerker and Frederick desks sometimes go cheap or free. 

DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

I can keep an eye out for an ad from the guy I've bought steel from the past 5 years. He gets 10 foot lengths of 2x2 and 1x2 regularly and sells it for as little as $0.80/ft for stuff with a slight bow to it. Would that be in your budget range?

Certainly better than $2.50.  Keep an eye out, but you're midwest aren't you?  The road trip would kill the bargain.  But I really wouldn't mind a Pasty washed down with a Vernor's. 

In reply to DuctTape&Bondo :

Off to search CL for treadmills, thanks.

I love this forum.

Not sure if this is helpful, a bit far:

Jeez I wish that were closer.

Curtis73 said:

the_machina said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

I know that you're used to dealing with heavy stuff, but 20 chairs at 35lbs per chair is going to be 700lbs on casters, and putting those folded chairs two tall is going to have the center of mass at about your belly button. Are you sure you want volunteers pushing those around and getting tipped on?

Also, In your current design you're cantilevering 175lbs on each pair of arms, without gussets, with the center of mass 2 feet out from the central support. Can your design support 200 ft-lbs of torque on each horizontal support? Your vertical supports are going to be subject to a ton of torque as well, because some volunteer is going to load one side before the other and leave it imbalanced.

Instead of stacking them on arms, why not plan to stack the chairs like books on a bookshelf? You would need a sturdy platform on the bottom, with one good well-braced end-wall for the stack of chairs to rest against. A couple 2x6's for the base, a well-braced end-wall, and you're able to stack a set of chairs one-tall leaned up against the end wall (with a handle on it to move it around)?

Well, to call it a "design" is not accurate.  That was a super quick sketchup drawing that isn't accurate at all to the real thing.  Gussets galore, an an up-angle to the pegs that would hold the chairs.  So, yes... my REAL design can easily carry the weight with lots of margin for extra capacity.

I made a similar thing for the tubular back rails for the seating risers using angle for the bases and green sign post for the uprights and unistrut for the cross pieces.  Each side is 2' and they easily hold 400 lbs each, even when the other side isn't loaded.

And the chair cart that someone else linked to on Ebay... that is rated for 700 lbs.  I'm not adding weight, I'm adding size.  Whereas that rack was designed for 700 lbs with 50 chairs, I'll be doing 700 lbs with 20 chairs because they take up more space.  I'm not concerned about a 5' tall rack that is 6x2' wide at the bottom.

I do like your idea about a wood cart though.  Not ideal since they would still occupy the same space loaded or empty.  I was thinking that steel frames would kinda fit inside each other when not in use, but I'll see if I can spare the real estate.

Fair 'nuff!

In reply to Curtis73 :

Look outside the box. 
If your goal is to move chairs around why limit it to steel?   Wood could do the job and wouldn't need to be painted or even padded to avoid scratching or making much noise.  
Cheap/ free wood can be found in shipping pallets. GMA shipping pallets need to be made from hardwoods like oak or ash. 

Don't nail them together, bolt with washers. If you want durable abuse taking trolley's for the chairs.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

Look outside the box. 
If your goal is to move chairs around why limit it to steel?   Wood could do the job and wouldn't need to be painted or even padded to avoid scratching or making much noise.  
Cheap/ free wood can be found in shipping pallets. GMA shipping pallets need to be made from hardwoods like oak or ash. 

Don't nail them together, bolt with washers. If you want durable abuse taking trolley's for the chairs.  

I have tried to come up with a suitable wood solution and I may have to resort to that.  My problem is real estate.  When the chairs are stored on racks, it means I'm not doing a show and I can have ugly things rolling around the space.  When the carts are empty, it means I'm doing a show and they need to be stashed somewhere.  6 steel framework carts can stack somewhat inside each other in a corner of the shop.  Wood carts don't really do that.

Still a viable suggestion if I can make it happen, I just have to find the space.

In reply to Curtis73 :

Isn't that a function of design? Just spitballin' here but what if you had the "top" cart carry one less chair so it would nest inside of the lower cart?  
 Or stacked, laid down, the chairs in a different fashion?  Not having access to demensions, etc I'm grasping at straws but I'm hoping to stimulate a creative idea that will solve your problem without resorting to using something expensive.  

Like this?  

I'm kidding, but I get what you're saying.  It's possible I suppose.  Using wood, the sides would have to be pretty beefy lumber with cross bracing.  I can imagine having them fit one direction but not the other.

I'll put the brain juices to work.

Or, maybe the sides of the wagon could fold down so the whole thing could be tipped up on edge which would greatly reduce its footprint.

Ok, here is the thought for a wooden cart.  I truly detest the footprint.  Not using vertical space means my 2' x 6' footprint is now a 4' x 8' footprint.  That kinda ticks me off a whole lot... and then some.  That means roughly 200 square feet to store chairs as opposed to 72 square feet.  That really isn't something that gives me warm fuzzies.

In reply to Curtis73 :

 I can really understand your situation.  When I sold industrial Forklifts I was frequently called in because of space issues. But solutions often entailed expensive equipment. Something I'm sure isn't in your budget.  
What is the overhead strength?  Is there any creative solution there?  
storing things vertically might reduce your space requirements. 
I'm thinking like roll a trolley to one spot and then have a rope and pulley way to raise it to the ceiling. Latch or hook it.  then drop the ropes down pick up another trolley to just below the first one,   etc. 

Curtis73 said:

Like this?  

I'm kidding, but I get what you're saying.  It's possible I suppose.  Using wood, the sides would have to be pretty beefy lumber with cross bracing.  I can imagine having them fit one direction but not the other.

I'll put the brain juices to work.

 

there are some clothes racks that are like a "Z"  and nest into each other for storage.........

2 ideas.  Both use wood.  2x4, 2x6, 2x8.   Use glue and construction screws at every joint for supreme rigidity and a Kreg tool for the support angles.  

1 uses 3/4" plywood brackets notched into a horizontal 2x8 to replicate the vendors device.   Keep enough of the 3/4" plywood intact and you should have no problem with 35 lbs / side.  

This design nests pretty well.  I estimated all the dimensions but figure roughly 3x8 for 1, 4x8.5 for 2, 5x9 for 3, etc.

Design 2 is a bit more complicated and also bit more clever.  Flip the chairs on their side and slide them into angled notch blocks on a vertical assembly.  They would somewhat cantilever.  It looks like the folding arms would stop them from falling out the bottom and they would rest reasonably well.  The frame is basically the same but the verticals are 2x8's here. 

This one doesn't nest as well as currently drawn. 

That said it would nest VERY Well if you splayed the legs out like this \___/

Construction would be challenging with the vertical being angled but I think you could pull it off.  This would make them nest very compactly and not get longer as they nest.  This is common in folding conference tables where the legs are oriented like this.

If you do metal I would just replicate what they made but make the legs splay for better nesting. 

Good luck.  Just a few ideas I had as I though about your deal.  Cost out of wood would be lower then steel but not Free.   

In reply to nocones :

Very clever and the fact that you are capable of drawing rather than trying to convey the idea verbally puts you way ahead of me.  
Screws and glue would be a lot faster than bolted assembly and nearly as strong. Titebond 3 is typically stronger than the wood it bonds. The only reason I go for bolted rather than screwed and glued is the ability to Re tighten periodically. While there is some potential  to do so with screws, once the wood yields screws no longer can provide that.  

I bought a nursery truck from a Kmart that was closing.  I see lots of them behind Lowe's.  Maybe but a few and modify them?  

So I used to be on the board of a local community theatre (as well as acting, carpentry, stage managing, and even directing a show).   I'm also a show sponsor through my business.   The big thing you have to your advantage here is that if you are part of the arts community and maybe you find a supplier who's ever had a family member even tangentially involved in a show, you can ask for a discount in exchange for a  shout out or ad in the program.  In our theatre, we run a projector with past show pictures and ads from patrons during the pre-show., and our announcements right before the curtain goes up also have a shout out to sponsors.

In reply to nocones :

SketchUp is so awesome.  Nice work!

frenchyd said:

In reply to Curtis73 :

 I can really understand your situation.  When I sold industrial Forklifts I was frequently called in because of space issues. But solutions often entailed expensive equipment. Something I'm sure isn't in your budget.  
What is the overhead strength?  Is there any creative solution there?  
storing things vertically might reduce your space requirements. 
I'm thinking like roll a trolley to one spot and then have a rope and pulley way to raise it to the ceiling. Latch or hook it.  then drop the ropes down pick up another trolley to just below the first one,   etc. 

Good overhead strength, but currently a lack of safe/legal rigging. I about 1000' of old rotten sisal rope and about 50 wooden block pulleys One of my dreams here is a gantry/beam crane so that I can hoist things up and swing them onto pallet racks.  Long story short, this was converted from a proscenium to a production/rehearsal facility in 1999 and all the theater stuff was liquidated.  I took over about 5 years ago and I'm slowly getting grants and donations to return it to a performance space.