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whenry
whenry HalfDork
12/28/12 8:40 p.m.

5.11 Tactical makes some interesting undershirts with carry pockets. Probably not good for really big guns but they work great with Rugers, etc.

xd
xd Reader
12/28/12 10:18 p.m.

Not that I do it all that much , but am I the only one in the world who cc's a .22?

phaze1todd
phaze1todd Reader
12/28/12 10:56 p.m.
xd wrote: Not that I do it all that much , but am I the only one in the world who cc's a .22?

No. However, a reason some go with small conceal carry calibers is since it's easier to conceal, the more likely they will carry it. Remember, the first rule of a gunfight - have a gun.

But, you say you don't carry that often to begin with.

Now, another rule is that when the situation arises, your goal is to stop the situation. Not to kill. Not to wound. You stop the situation.

I don't see a .22 as a practical round for stopping a situation.

Secretariata
Secretariata Reader
12/28/12 11:20 p.m.

In reply to stroker:

Looks like Nate's are open, which is why I asked. There may be differences like the size of the leather piece between you (me) and the butt of the weapon. Officer sized 1911's have a shorter grip so a full size frame might extend beyond the holster backing and be uncomfortable for extended wear. My only holster experiences are military issue (many moons ago) and a kydex OWB that is open and works with all of my 1911's.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltraDork
12/28/12 11:24 p.m.
stroker wrote: Just re-upped my CCW and I'm thinking of getting serious about a semiauto instead of my L-frame. I'm about to dive into a 1911 Commander but I'm going to give youse guys a chance to submit alternatives. Da conditions are: 1. No tactical tupperware--all metal frame (aluminum or steel) only. Prefer stainless or aluminum. 2. Major caliber: 38 Super, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 ACP only. 3. Single stack preferred but not essential. 4. Only established designs--no zinc Llamas or discontinued Eurocrap. 5. Prefer single action, but DAO is okay. 6. Smallest, lightest package possible. 7. Max price used or new $500. Whaddya got? I can't come up with much.

Honestly a .38 +p S&W revolver. I would avoid an automatic, espcially the 1911 (and I own a Colt and a Springfield models) due to the single action. Revolver fires, if the load is bad it goes to the next one, no jam, no cocking, just bang.

Train with it and get used to the double action trigger pull, do not train yourself to get used to the shorter single action trigger pull. In emergencies you won't have the time or the wits about you to deal with issues or the extras.

In a carry weapon you want reliable, uncomplicated, accurate bangs. You have to train much, much, much more with a 1911 to get there.

Secretariata
Secretariata Reader
12/28/12 11:29 p.m.
whenry wrote: 5.11 Tactical makes some interesting undershirts with carry pockets. Probably not good for really big guns but they work great with Rugers, etc.

I've seen something similar and it looks like it would be hard to conceal without a baggy shirt or a jacket and difficult to access under duress. If I gotta wear a tshirt and an overshirt or jacket, I'd rather go with the Don Johnson look and wear a tshirt or polo with a thin blazer and the Galco shoulder rig. It is hot and humid where I live so IWB is what I'm going to try first. In the horrible heat wave periods when the opportunity to wear casual attire arises I may choose to go with a pocket holster and a smaller pistol. Or a softball sized rock...

Secretariata
Secretariata Reader
12/28/12 11:38 p.m.

In reply to Flight Service:

3 biggest issues with 1911's are:

  1. Magazines

  2. Feed Ramp

  3. Limp wrist

Not necessarily in that order.

Solve those potential issues and you have similar capacity and larger holes than most revolvers used for concealed carry. Obviously, practice including addressing possible failure modes and reloading are part of any regimen. Not trying to invalidate your argument for revolvers, because they are very simple to use. Just want to point out that 1911's aren't as unreliable as many people think.

Flight Service
Flight Service UltraDork
12/29/12 12:26 a.m.
Secretariata wrote: In reply to Flight Service: 3 biggest issues with 1911's are: 1. Magazines 2. Feed Ramp 3. Limp wrist Not necessarily in that order. Solve those potential issues and you have similar capacity and larger holes than most revolvers used for concealed carry. Obviously, practice including addressing possible failure modes and reloading are part of any regimen. Not trying to invalidate your argument for revolvers, because they are very simple to use. Just want to point out that 1911's aren't as unreliable as many people think.

Never said unreliable, I am sorry if you took it that way, to clarify, I meant YOU (as in OP) were unreliable, unless you are military/police trained (and given your question being here, you aren't) I am would worry about your response. I own 2 1911 and of the thousands of rounds put between them collectively I would say 5 jams or there about.

The problem is 1 jam at the wrong time is enough, and you must carry with a bullet in the chamber, and cock the gun, and draw. You see the issues. The problem isn't the 1911, it is with single action and automatics. You are looking for a protection weapon, it HAS to fire, HAS to be concealable, and HAS to stop an aggressor. The 1911 was designed to fire, fire, and fire some more, but not necessarily for the first round to be really quick, (as in an ideal conceal carry weapon) nor was it meant to be concealable. The shorter barrel on my Springfield Armory Champion Edition is great to carry, I am a big guy, but it kicks like a mule. The Colt is horrible to carry as it is almost always noticeable, but shoots much better. The Smith carry nice, is easily concealable and, with the invention of the +P, has enough punch to stop what is needed.

I know the OP didn't want a glock because of the plastic, but I rule them out on the lack of safety (that trigger safety is as useless as something gets on a gun)

American Rifleman Best Personal Protection Ammo. is a good straight forward article on the best caliber. The 38+p has actually been recommended by some experts as a better conceal round than the 357 due to ballistics of the +P.

Maybe a pic will help you decide on what is the better conceal carry weapon.

My 3.

rotard
rotard Dork
12/29/12 3:04 a.m.
Secretariata wrote:
rotard wrote: The N8^2 innerwaistband holsters are awesome. You should check them out. http://n82tactical.com/n82store/
Will check out their website more this weekend. Any idea if there is any practical difference in the 3" - 3.5" 1911 and 4" - 5" 1911 holsters? Most of the brands I've been able to find out, it appears that you can use a shorter barreled 1911 in a holster for a longer barreled 1911 but not the reverse.

A Glock 17 and Glock 19 both fit in my Pro model holster just fine. All single-stacked 1911's should be able to ride in the same holster just fine, but a 5" 1911's barrel may extend past the bottom of the holster. The holster is open muzzle.

slantvaliant
slantvaliant SuperDork
12/31/12 10:48 a.m.
Flight Service wrote: The problem is 1 jam at the wrong time is enough, and you must carry with a bullet in the chamber, and cock the gun, and draw. ...The 1911 was designed to fire, fire, and fire some more, but not necessarily for the first round to be really quick, (as in an ideal conceal carry weapon) nor was it meant to be concealable.

Having lived with and carried assorted Government Model .45's in good and bad places on the taxpayer dime and on my own, I have to disagree. Carried Condition One (round in the chamber, hammer cocked, thumb safety on) in a practical holster, it is as fast into action as any modern handgun, and the short, clean, but not light trigger pull it should have allows very precise shot placement in a hurry. Oh, and I don't have to cock the hammer - it happens when I rack the slide, and there's little reason to ever lower it or cock it by hand.

The M1911 format is slim for its cartridge, and is easy to carry concealed with a proper holster and belt. The shorter Commander-length slide and barrel make it a little easier for those who sit a lot. The Officers ACP's shorter butt does help a little as well.

Flight Service wrote: I know the OP didn't want a glock because of the plastic, but I rule them out on the lack of safety (that trigger safety is as useless as something gets on a gun)

And the revolver you promote has no safety lever at all. That doesn't bother me much, with a proper holster and training, but we should be consistent in our criticism.

Snubby .38's have their place, but even they can malfunction in ways that are very difficult to clear under pressure. A little crud under the extractor star, foreign objects between the cylinder and frame or behind the trigger, the ejector rod unscrewing and preventing cylinder rotation, bullets jumping crimp and blocking cylinder rotation ... I have experienced all of the above with name-brand revolvers and factory ammunition. For a revolver to fire that critical first shot, almost all systems have to work, and you have to get around the longer, heavier trigger pull to hit anything.

For the Condition One M1911 to fire that first shot, only some of the parts have to work. The magazine could be in your pocket and the slide welded shut, but that first round goes.

I like, have carried, and will in the future carry revolvers. I'd carry a Glock, but they don't fit my hand as well as several other handguns. At this stage, I prefer the 1911 in .45 ACP. Still, nothing made by Man is perfect, one size does not fit all, and I reserve the right to change my mind.

N Sperlo
N Sperlo UltimaDork
12/31/12 10:54 a.m.

I'm with slant on the 1911. A friend who teaches the course carries one. Be it though it is modified and worth upwards of $2500, it is a very nice carry weapon. Trigger pull is less than 1 lb which Is good for him.

I prefer my P345 which is blockier, but does not cause a problem concealing, and I am happier carrying with the hammer down. Personal preference.

Flight Service
Flight Service UberDork
12/31/12 11:05 a.m.
slantvaliant wrote: Still, nothing made by Man is perfect, one size does not fit all, and I reserve the right to change my mind.

Nice way out there.

The 5/6 in a revolver is about all you need in a conceal carry. You aren't getting in a firefight by the 80/20 rule, and if that is the situation you are prepping for why the hell are you asking questions on a Motorsports board?

I love my 1911, both of them. And I have trained on how be effective in carrying them for years, but if I was going to introduce someone to conceal carry and they wanted to be effective very quickly, I wouldn't put them on it first.

I think the long trigger pull is a much safer situation than that miniscule trigger safety on a Glock. I have played with 3 different Glocks from 3 different owners and have been able to get them to drop the firing pin very easily. All to the point where the owner says, "don't put your finger on the trigger if you don't want to shoot." Well no E36 M3 Sherlock, that is the point of a safety, you made a mistake. It's not the first line of defense, that is responsible handling, but everyone errors. Accidently pulling that .38 double action back to fire is a hell of alot harder to do than touching that little twitch on the center of a Glock. So I am constant in my criticism. Your experience with jams on a revolver out stretches mine by a mile. I have had 2 rounds not fire and just pulled the trigger again, no issues.

The 1911 is a safe auto, but the jam factor was a concern. I am not comfortable having my 45 in the 3rd position with just thumb.(remember 45s also have a half cock hammer safety), If I am using it as a carry it is in position 2 and I cock it upon draw. Yes this took training, yes I have heard many people tell me this is dumb, yes I had a father that was in the military and him and his SF buddies all signed off on it. I trust them and their assessment of my abilities, much more than I trust myself.

In the end the advice this guy is asking for, as I interpret it is he wants a conceal carry weapon that can be readily used without a very rigorous train regimen. I see the revolver being that solution.

Personally, carry a Desert Eagle for all I care.

P.S. Why is it everyone thinks I am against a 1911? I own 2. Just because the OP asked a very specific question and based on that data, I recommend against the 1911 doesn't mean I don't think they are a great firearm. I would list them as the best pistol ever, period. But a gun is a tool and every tools has it's place, even the 1911.

N Sperlo
N Sperlo UltimaDork
12/31/12 11:11 a.m.

Hell, if you can conceal this in my state, you can carry it:

ValuePack
ValuePack Dork
12/31/12 11:47 a.m.
N Sperlo wrote: I prefer my P345

(slight hijack)

How do you like it? I've shot the hell out of the P97 it replaced, but haven't gotten a P345 in hand to try out. They're somewhat cheap, I'm tempted to just drop the coin to find out.

(/ze 'jack)

slantvaliant
slantvaliant SuperDork
12/31/12 12:10 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: The 5/6 in a revolver is about all you need in a conceal carry. You aren't getting in a firefight by the 80/20 rule ...

If you find yourself having to make the Shoot/Don't Shoot decision, the 80/20 rule is already out the window and you're having a really bad day.

N Sperlo
N Sperlo UltimaDork
12/31/12 12:13 p.m.

In reply to ValuePack:

Its a simple weapon with some recoil suppression built in. No clue how that works. Fits a big hand well, the safety features are great, but they should be the same as the P97. You'll shoot a little straighter with a Para or an expensive 1911, but for the money its hard to beat. Carries just fine.

yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
12/31/12 1:07 p.m.

The only weapon I've had a AD on was the Springfield xd i owned before returning to glocks. I have never seen a glock malfunction and fire without the trigger pulled. EVER 1911's should always be carried in hammer back, round in pipe, and safety on. Fwiw, I carry a variety of weapons......38 snubby, 1903/08 colt(SA only, safety on), sig p230(da/sa on half cock due to no safety), or my old LJ 25acp(DAO)

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltraDork
12/31/12 1:40 p.m.

The only weapon I've had an AD on was a remington Model 11..... and that was because the recoil was so severe it slid in my hands and allowed my trigger finger to brush the triger for rounds 2 and 3. That mofo would cylce faster than snot.

Secretariata
Secretariata Reader
12/31/12 5:17 p.m.
Bobzilla wrote: The only weapon I've had an AD on was a remington Model 11..... and that was because the recoil was so severe it slid in my hands and allowed my trigger finger to brush the triger for rounds 2 and 3. That mofo would cylce faster than snot.

Wow! 2 AD's in one attempt is that some sort of record for a weapon that isn't fully auto? Or is it a new version of the 3 round burst?

yamaha
yamaha SuperDork
12/31/12 6:08 p.m.

In reply to Secretariata:

Sounds more like bump fire.....

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic HalfDork
12/31/12 6:52 p.m.
Bobzilla wrote: The only weapon I've had an AD on was a remington Model 11..... and that was because the recoil was so severe it slid in my hands and allowed my trigger finger to brush the triger for rounds 2 and 3. That mofo would cylce faster than snot.

Sounds like it wasn't tuned right.

Will
Will Dork
12/31/12 9:27 p.m.

I carry a commander-sized 1911. As has been said, its slim design makes it more concealable than its one might think.

tuna55
tuna55 UberDork
1/1/13 2:45 a.m.

Just got a Glock 23, I know you said no tactical tupperware, but it sure is nice

Bobzilla
Bobzilla UltraDork
1/1/13 9:49 a.m.
Kenny_McCormic wrote:
Bobzilla wrote: The only weapon I've had an AD on was a remington Model 11..... and that was because the recoil was so severe it slid in my hands and allowed my trigger finger to brush the triger for rounds 2 and 3. That mofo would cylce faster than snot.
Sounds like it wasn't tuned right.

It was the first time I'd shot it since I was a kid, I was shooting from the hip and the recoil caught me off guard. it took the third round to get my brain to shout to my finger "GET OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD MORON!"

N Sperlo
N Sperlo UltimaDork
1/1/13 10:04 a.m.
Bobzilla wrote:
Kenny_McCormic wrote:
Bobzilla wrote: The only weapon I've had an AD on was a remington Model 11..... and that was because the recoil was so severe it slid in my hands and allowed my trigger finger to brush the triger for rounds 2 and 3. That mofo would cylce faster than snot.
Sounds like it wasn't tuned right.
It was the first time I'd shot it since I was a kid, I was shooting from the hip and the recoil caught me off guard. it took the third round to get my brain to shout to my finger "GET OUT OF THE TRIGGER GUARD MORON!"

Here. Just uploaded a very short video. I used it in the last video I uploaded, but this video has been made public. The weapon used is a .22 Ruger with a 10 round magazine and it is semi-automatic. Many people don't realise how quickly you can shoot a semi-automatic, and Bob's post made me think to post this video up.

http://youtu.be/2RlAOw9ChIY

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