Divorce...

In reply to Papabishop :

I asked my counselor that same question 14-years ago(my 1st wife refused to go to the sessions with me). She said you need to pick a point, draw a "line in the sand", and when it gets crossed that's it - no 2nd chances, no looking back - it's done. 

I really struggled to set that limit, and wasn't 100% sure it hadn't already been crossed. Then one night it hit me - literally: she slapped me in the kitchen, and I realized in that instant if she'd turned violent against me, there's no reason she might not turn violent on our daughter too, as I'd already seen my wife taking out her frustrations on our daughter occasionally. 

I won't say it was easy or fun, but from that moment on the path was set. She left that night, got her things a couple days later, and the divorce was finalized in a couple months. 

We actually get along well now, though we don't have contact very often since our daughter is 18 & finishing high school. Also, I apparently set a pattern in motion: new man -> new baby -> new truck -> new divorce. I was the 1st, and she's passed the "new man"/"new baby" #3 point. 

In reply to Papabishop :

Are you talking about divorcing your family or wife?

For my wife and I divorce was not, and is not an anwer. We took a vow. Things got rough, REAL rough between us a few years back. We separated for a little but (I thought it was over), but continued to work on our own issues individually, and as a couple. We applied bible principles in ourselves, and our marriage. 

We didn't look to divorce like soo many do. 

That was 10 years ago.

2 weeks ago we celebrated 21 years of marriage. We are happier as individuals and as a couple,  now more than ever. We've weathered that storm, as well as the loss of our first-born (loss of a child is, statistically a marriage killer) because we worked together to nullify the issues, not our vows. 

It took work, LOTS of work. It was ugly at times. It was unpleasant. But now we are more solid that we knew possible and our kids have two parents to grow up with, and I still have my best friend. 

So my answer as to when to call it quits: never. Well, if you're being abused, but that's it. 

The original post has been deleted. That's cool. It's good to be able to pull words back. 

I just want to comment that my parents have managed to avoid divorce. In that process they became the kind of people I don't usally want to be around, and they're unpredictable enough that I certainly don't let my kids around them. They "saved" their marraige, but at significant cost to their other relationships. Marriage is part of your life and part of happiness, not all of it. 

^^

What Dr Boost said.

We just crossed 31 years. 

That said, it takes two to tango. If she isn't willing, you can't move the ship alone. 

Edited.

I didn't avoid it. She asked, i said ok. After all we'd been through financially, mentally, physically, if she still didn't get it that I was not going back on my word, she'd already moved on and there was nothing left for me. The worst part was, I wasn't even sad. I was relieved. 

OP deleted, so not sure what the story was.

I've studied inter-sexual relationships, marriage and desire quite a bit in the last half dozen years as things weren't going the way I thought they should. I've learned a lot. A lot of it won't paint a picture of unicorns and rainbows. Truth is out there if you want to find it but be prepared to face that the Disney fantasy of love and marriage and 'The One' as depicted in popular culture is mostly BS. I know that will come across as jaded but it is the rational conclusion after studying evolutionary biology and other sources.

Does this mean that men and women can't get along in a relationship? No. But too many people don't choose wisely, for one thing. A lot of relationships are simply bad pairings. Then stir in hypergamy, solipsism and a few other big words and things can quickly implode.

I am 26 years married this month and don't plan on changing that dynamic. I would not get married again, however; at least not at my age. There is no reason to marry at 50+. Won't be making any kids and have too much to lose in a divorce to start over.

The SJW's would like us to believe men and women are the same and want the same things. We are not, and do not. First truth you have to accept to understand why things happen they way they do and then begin to adapt to it.

Toyman01 said:

 

That said, it takes two to tango. If she isn't willing, you can't move the ship alone. 

QFT

I married the wrong woman 20 years ago.  When the signs showed up 6 months in that I'd chosen poorly I decided to forgive and move forward.  This was a mistake and cost me heavily throughout the rest of the 13 year marriage and now divorced life.

Why is divorce so expensive?  Because its worth it.  

Seriously, life is too short to waste years and years fighting and struggling to honor some outdated commitment ceremony.  Move on.  I have been divorced for 15 years and my life with my wife is much happier than it ever could have been with my ex and my current relationship with my ex is much better than it ever could have been.  My relationship my daughter is fantastic...that would not have been possible had I tried to stay with her mom...and her mom is remarried and much happier than she would have been with me.  Our daughter survived living in two houses, and got the benefits of a larger extended family who took her places and opened her to experiences that I never would have.  So for me, divorce was the best decision I ever made for myself and my family. 

When I was married we would joke that viewing the union like a series of 5 year leases with an option to renew was a good idea as we stayed on our "game" and didn't get lazy, taking one another for granted.

After seeing how ugly she got when she decided on a divorce my belief (only slightly joking) is that divorce should be settled with a duel.  That way, win or lose, there is closure.

**gee, I hope I don't sound excessively bitter

In reply to Pete Gossett :

Hate to break it to you Pete but you were just a starter husband.

My parents, who were high school sweethearts, made it 46 years and were only parted by death.  They fought, they sniped at each other, it was not a Broadway musical romance, but they were always on the same team.  They went the distance together, even over all the hurdles and potholes.

My father's best friend, a good Catholic (not singling out Catholicism, but it's relevant) was exactly the same age and had been married the same year as my father.  He was the nicest, most generous guy you'd ever meet, but he had enough steel to get whatever needed doing done.  He was a great dad and I can't imagine he wasn't a caring husband... but his wife was awful.  20 years in and I remember she still asked him how he took his coffee every night - that really struck me, even though I was only a kid.  She never said a nice word and was just generally disagreeable.  I never knew the circumstances they got married under, but it was clearly the wrong choice.

But being the nicest guy in the world, and a good Catholic to boot, he stuck it out.  He had given his word and that was the end of the story.  He was miserable for the entire decade I knew him being married to her.

Finally, after a lot of heartbreaking talks with my parents, he finally quit throwing his love into the black hole.  His kids were grown, he was still miserable, she was still awful.  He gritted his teeth, overcame his religion, and divorced her.  His life immediately improved, even being single.  And then 5 years later he married a great woman who loved him and showed him what that's like.  They really did live happily ever after.

So I agree, you shouldn't give up when the going gets hard.  But when you're just not going the same direction, all the gritty determination in the world will never overcome that fundamental issue.  Acknowledge that and move on.  Life is way too short to live like that.

While I deeply respect those couples who stick with it through thick and thin, sometimes the unhappiness is generally one sided, with one person running at baseline (always miserable) and the other person running way below ("the abused"). 

I generally think that religion and cultural influence can set people up for disaster. I believe strongly in the benefits of a long-tumultous courtship. At the same time, people need to man (or woman) up and split when things don't look great. If you can make it for 5 years without being married and still be happy nearly every day, that's a good sign. My wife and I were together for 6 before we got hitched, it's only gotten better since. 

Another dynamic many relationships miss is being open about your hopes, dreams and future desires. I see so many marriages and relationships crumble because sudden one person decides they want to live on a boat and the other wants to raise a family in suburbia. Like...how did you miss that during courtship? 

In reply to pheller :

I agree. You need to be on the same page with regards to religious views, family views and finances before pulling the trigger. Waiting to get married, and making sure you're happy with one another has almost zero drawbacks.

There's also some interesting data that suggests when a married couple begins their relationship has some bearing on how long it lasts. Couples that start very young (High school sweethearts for example) tend to have enough common experiences that they can grow together. They may have been each other's "First" for tons of things, and they're unlikely to want to throw that away without a fight.

Couples that meet in their early or mid 20s are more likely to struggle as they figure out who they are on their own for the first time. It's more likely that these couples grow apart rather than growing together like the younger couples.

Couples that begin a relationship after their mid 20s tend to have higher marriage success rates than the early-mid 20s couples because they're a bit more established going into the relationship, and have a better idea who they are, and what they want in a mate. It's a much more stable environment than one's early-mid 20s.

My parents met in college, graduated, got married, then both joined the Navy.  I think they made it 14 years before divorce (I was 6).  There were quite a few years of hatred between the two, usually had to do with child support.  Once all the kids were adults the relationship warmed.  20+ years later they are best friends.

Sometimes it works out for the best...over time.

Here's a statistical anomaly. My wife and I knew each other for 5 weeks before we eloped. Nobody thought we would last a year. 

When we got married it was us against the entire world. I'm pretty sure that helped make us a team. Sometimes she does drive me batty and I'm 100% certain I drive her crazy as well.  

I read the OP last night and I was confused about the post as well.  After reading it my first thought was for the poster OP to just take a moment and breath.  They sounded very stressed

Every situation is different of course, but the divorce industry I've seen tries very hard to steer families into not working it out regardless of any particulars. When the industry experts profiting from your situation tell you how things should go...  And if it doesn't feel right for YOUR situation, you don't have to go with their plan for your family.

There’s a 60 year Indian guy in my church that had an arranged marriage when he was in India as a young man (wife grew up there too).  Now it’s 30+ years of a great marriage with three adult children.  

He/she told us they learned to love each other like you learn to love your kids no matter what (unconditional).  Love is a verb   

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-science-behind-behavior/201511/why-are-so-many-indian-arranged-marriages-successful?amp

How do you explain this?  Why the low divorce rate?

No idea what the OP said.

STM317 said:

In reply to pheller :

There's also some interesting data that suggests when a married couple begins their relationship has some bearing on how long it lasts. Couples that start very young (High school sweethearts for example) tend to have enough common experiences that they can grow together. They may have been each other's "First" for tons of things, and they're unlikely to want to throw that away without a fight.

Couples that meet in their early or mid 20s are more likely to struggle as they figure out who they are on their own for the first time. It's more likely that these couples grow apart rather than growing together like the younger couples.

Couples that begin a relationship after their mid 20s tend to have higher marriage success rates than the early-mid 20s couples because they're a bit more established going into the relationship, and have a better idea who they are, and what they want in a mate. It's a much more stable environment than one's early-mid 20s.

I'm sure those comments are based on some kind of statistics, but from both personal experience and the experiences of many many friends and family that is almost exactly the opposite of reality.

Sure I know some people who were married young and have stayed that way.  But by far the majority of high school romances that lead to marriage I know of have ended in divorces (mine included) while the vast number I know who met in their late 20's to early 30's who married are still together decades later (again myself included)

As I say, I know couples who line up with what STM said, but more don't.  This isn't a criticism of STM or those who marry young, it's just personal experience and observation.   I honestly don't think their is a right or wrong answer.  

People have been trying to explain love for a millennium. What is love? I can't define it, but, baby don't hurt, don't hurt me, no more.

In reply to Pete Gossett :

My line was when I saw Lil Stampie being affected. That's when I realized he'd be better with two happy homes than one sad home.

Appleseed said:

People have been trying to explain love for a millennium. What is love? I can't define it, but, baby don't hurt, don't hurt me, no more.

The person with the least to lose leaving a relationship is the one with the most power.

Stampie said:

In reply to Pete Gossett :

My line was when I saw Lil Stampie being affected. That's when I realized he'd be better with two happy homes than one sad home.

Yep, I watched my MIL browbeat and berate my FIL into an early grave and now I realize that I’m nothing more than a sparring partner for my wife to teach our daughters how to have the exact--same--failed--marriage.

Yes, I did try to get us into therapy…she decided that only I needed to go and she wrote a list for me to give the therapist identifying all the things she wanted fixed in me.