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No Time
No Time SuperDork
12/4/21 3:31 p.m.

I saw this article and it made think about what's going to happen if the kid in this story ends up driving a car without regen braking? 

Failed driving test for using regenerative braking

Seems like there is a potential gap in skills that could lead to higher chance of accidents. 

I hadn't given this any thought before seeing the article, and have no experience driving an EV, but thinking about this and wondering is it a real issue or just concern due to lack of experience with EV. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/4/21 3:36 p.m.

Clickbait. The car still has a brake pedal that is used for higher levels of deceleration. You just don't HAVE to use it - and one-pedal rewards heads up driving, so I would argue it makes you a better driver. 

We don't have separate licenses for manual transmissions, and that's a much bigger skill gap. 

COUGAR
COUGAR PowerDork
12/4/21 3:37 p.m.

Keith said it better than I could.

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
12/4/21 3:52 p.m.

Electric cars are no easier to drive than gas cars. There's absolutely no need for ev only licensing. 

JStrobel80
JStrobel80 New Reader
12/4/21 4:06 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith, not to directly disagree with you, but to play more of a devils advocate as part of a discussion.

I understand your view point of one pedal rewarding heads up driving, due to having to pay more attention to allow the car to slow down etc. HOWEVER, its not a otherwise normal car that you're JUST using brake regen on. Because of the nature of the beast, it naturally comes with all the other nanny devices allowing you to not pay attention. The car WILL stop for you, it WILL keep you in the lane. Focusing on just the brake regen and the ideal scenario where someone will be more focused due to that alone, in these increasingly complex cars seems idealistic. I feel that the guise of "safety" creates more unsafe drivers because their guard has been let down and awareness/vigilance decreases dramatically. 

The example of manual transmissions proves my point exactly. When you had 3 pedals, a tachometer and only two hands...what were you doing? You were driving. Even something as mundane as the automatic transmission greatly altered driver awareness, allowing you to do other things other than driving. 

daeman
daeman Dork
12/4/21 4:21 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Clickbait. The car still has a brake pedal that is used for higher levels of deceleration. You just don't HAVE to use it - and one-pedal rewards heads up driving, so I would argue it makes you a better driver. 

We don't have separate licenses for manual transmissions, and that's a much bigger skill gap. 

In my state in Australia we have a provisional drivers license restriction based on weather you pass your on road driving test in an auto or manual. That restriction falls away after a few years once you've completed both your p1 and p2  license periods.

Overview of learner and provisional licensing in NSW

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/4/21 4:21 p.m.

The nannies/drivers aids/etc are not tied to the method of propulsion. My mother's VW has lane departure, emergency brake assist, lane centering, blind spot monitoring and radar cruise. Probably more. But  runs on gasoline. You are concerned about an increasing number of drivers aids, but you're erroneously equating that with electric vehicles. That's not the nature of the beast for an EV, that's the nature of a modern vehicle like it or not.

When you had three pedals and a tach and a gearshift, it was impossible to keep both hands in the wheel at all time and you had more demands on your attention to manage the vehicle.  The automatic transmission has been around well over a half century, we did manage that transition :)

No Time
No Time SuperDork
12/4/21 4:25 p.m.

Having not driven an electric car is was curious about others opinions. 

One thing that played into my original question, is if you learn and only drive and EV do you develop the skills needed to use two pedals to do what you mind and muscles have been trained to do with only one pedal?

It's a question we probably can't accurately answer since I doubt we have members that learned exclusively on EVs and then transitioned to ICE vehicles. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/4/21 4:30 p.m.

You still use both in an EV. Just not constantly. But the OMG STOP NOW scenario is the same.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
12/4/21 4:34 p.m.

Yeah, I'd say I'm a "one pedal" driver with ICE cars, manual or auto. Mainly in the sense that I rarely use the brakes unless I have to come to a full stop- my pads lasted 102k on my WRX before I changed them, and they had plenty of meat left. Our gti is at 80k and I haven't even checked them. The tesla felt natural to me pretty quickly, except there was very little "coasting" in the setting the owner had it in.

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/4/21 4:38 p.m.

I'd rather we have restricted licenses for people who only use car share programs.

Every time I end up with someone in a car-share car in front of me, they're driving like hot garbage because they only get behind the wheel once a month or something like that.

Maybe restrict them from carrying passengers or take the radio out of the car or do something to keep them focused on the damn road.

RichardNZ
RichardNZ Reader
12/4/21 4:40 p.m.

Interesting discussion that could be applied to many activities in modern life.
In the context of the thread title we (NZ) have a graduated drivers licensing system that works, at least sort of, OK - 

  • 1st step is a Learners Permit. Requires a written test of the rules and allows the learner to drive while accompanied by a fully licensed driver. They are obliged to display an 'L' plate.
  • 2nd step is a Restricted License. Requires a practical test by a testing company. If you take this test in an automatic car your license will be endorsed 'Automatic Only'. At this level they are not allowed unlicensed passengers nor can they drive after 10pm. 
  • 3rd step is a seriously difficult practical test to the point where many parts of the country do not have adequate 'infrastructure' in the form of traffic lights, roundabouts and divided highways so candidates need to be tested somewhere more urban. The auto only, if applicable, tag comes off at this point.

There are some things I don't agree with -

  • No penalty for displaying an L plate when not needed so you don't know whether it is a learner or mama duck that can't be bothered removing it.
  • No R plate or equivalent. 
  • Drivers can remain on their restricted effectively for ever.
  • No systems or advertising or anything resembling education to encourage people to improve.

just call me a grumpy old man smiley

Richard

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
12/4/21 4:56 p.m.

Also, everyone should have to ride a motorcycle for the first two years, then graduate to a car.

No Time
No Time SuperDork
12/4/21 4:59 p.m.

In reply to ShawnG :

That would eliminate a lot of inattentive drivers, just not necessarily through skill development. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/4/21 5:08 p.m.

In reply to No Time :

It would help with organ donation, though. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/4/21 5:10 p.m.

More seriously, though - almost all driver aids alert you to when they're doing something. If you trigger a driver's aid during a driving test, maybe that's a fail. 

Grumman F9F Cougar
Grumman F9F Cougar MegaDork
12/4/21 5:20 p.m.
No Time said:

Having not driven an electric car is was curious about others opinions. 

One thing that played into my original question, is if you learn and only drive and EV do you develop the skills needed to use two pedals to do what you mind and muscles have been trained to do with only one pedal?

It's a question we probably can't accurately answer since I doubt we have members that learned exclusively on EVs and then transitioned to ICE vehicles. 

In drivers ed, in the mid nineties,  we were taught 1 foot driving. We were supposed to pivot the right foot on our heal from the gas to the brake and back as needed. 

 

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/4/21 5:37 p.m.

Look, I teach DE for a living. I teach that the less you use the brake pedal in everyday driving the smoother you are. You are shutting down the FI system as you coast towards a traffic light, recharging the batteries in an EV or hybrid, and generally paying better attention to avoid panic/sudden stops and jack rabbit starts. Being a safe driver goes hand in hand with being an efficient driver. 

We just got an i3 for my wife. Is it different? You bet. Is that bad? Nope. 

My school uses a Ford Fusion hybrid. Very good car to learn on. Not too big, not too small. The latest tech to teach since these are gonna be the used cars they get in about 5-10 years.

I also teach them that if they rely on the aids and assists (what we in the profession call enablers since they enable bad habits) to do the work for them (stay in lane, check the blind spot, emergency stop, etc.) then they're not paying enough attention and are not really driving.

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
12/4/21 6:44 p.m.

This, George. That's what I was trying to say. In flight school they used to say, "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/4/21 6:50 p.m.

The way I see it, a driver's license shows that you know the rules (written and unwritten) of the road, not that you know how to operate any specific vehicle.

 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/4/21 10:10 p.m.

I fully support more scrutiny and education before licensing, but I don't see the need for a separate license.

If we could just get people to get out of the left lane, turn off their high beams to oncoming traffic, and do the other normal things like turn signals and stopping at stop signs, that would be nice.  The actual driving dynamics of the car are something you have no choice but to learn.

I took my test in 1989 in a 1965 Chevy Pickup that barely passed inspection.  Do I get a worse or better grade because I had a manual shifter that was falling off the transmission and only front brakes?  How do my scores compare to the person who was tested in a brand new Buick with ABS?  Do I get "mad skillz" points for my 3-point turn because I had no power steering?

I'm just tired of 90% of drivers being awful.  I realize that I (and we) represent people who drive as a passion and that there are millions of people who drive because they feel they have to in order to function in society, but the idiots on the road today who claim ignorance for things like "I didn't know you can't drive in the left lane unless you're passing," is getting worse every year.

But a special EV license?  No.  The license you have qualifies you to drive that old 65 Chevy pickup the same as a 2021 Mercedes... which is a MUCH bigger difference between the 2021 Mercedes and a Tesla.  Heck, that license also qualifies you to drive a 40-foot motorhome or a 26' box truck with air brakes.  So no.  If anything, the rules for testing need to adapt, not the licensing.

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose SuperDork
12/4/21 11:31 p.m.

Requiring actual competence behind the wheel would be unamerican.  

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
12/4/21 11:50 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I'm just tired of 90% of drivers being awful.  I realize that I (and we) represent people who drive as a passion and that there are millions of people who drive because they feel they have to in order to function in society

I don't think it's just a feeling.  Look at our urban planning, it's almost universally car centric.  Cities devote 50-60% of their land area to parking for cars.  Highways crisscross and divide our urban areas.  People queue up daily to inch forward on interstates to their workplace.  Most retail shops are boxes along stroads, making it difficult to walk between them.  Public transportation is almost non existent outside of a few select areas.  Etc. Etc.   If you don't drive a car in the USA, how can you really participate in society?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/21 3:19 p.m.

I would say license restrictions would be much more reasonable for high HP cars than EVs. And yes, I realize some EVs, like Tesla's are crazy quick. 

V8 Mustangs crashing into people, cars, and stationary objects has become a meme for a reason. Anyone with credit and a job that allows them to buy a $35k car can go out and buy a nearly 500 hp vehicle with nothing more than showing the testing agent they can parallel park. 

You can buy a 9 sec sport bike with nothing more than answering the questions on the test. Techincally you can buy it without the M endorsement but it wouldn't be legal to ride it on the street. 

 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
12/5/21 3:53 p.m.

Safe driving is more about awareness of your surroundings and proactively planning how you're going to navigate your environment and adapt to traffic, rather than using the regenerative braking vs. a brake pedal to gradually slow a car.

If you read the article, the kid DID use the brake pedal. Just to bring the car to a complete stop, rather than to slow it gradually.

 

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