Help me become an insurance adjuster. Or not.

The thread, https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/asking-for-a-friend-is-this-subaru-totaled/144334/page1/, brought some insurance <strike>adjusters</strike> appraisers (the non desk job one) out of the woodwork. I asked how I might become one and Klayfish replied,

"You'd want to go to an appraisal class such as what Vale offers...  http://www.valetrainingsolutions.com/our-auto-courses/   That's the minimum that would be required for you to get started in appraising cars for insurance companies.  See if larger IA firms such as PDA or SCA are willing to hire without prior experience, and some insurance companies will too.  Some of them may send you to a school like that for training."

I spent a few minutes looking through what he sent me.

I didn't want to hijack that thread so I'm starting a new one here to figure out what it's actually like (all I know is what I saw in Fight Club -- do I really have to blow up my apartment? I don't have an apartment).

Here are the basic questions:

1. Experience. I have none. If I go through that Vale course (or are there other courses?) it's $3k but lasts only one or two weeks. Will I really be able to get a job based on that alone? I've been in IT for almost a decade and there hasn't been a bit of professional overlap with anything car related so I have no experience other than being a shade tree mechanic.
2. Pay. I looked it up and the range of pay is like 35-75/year. I'm the sole breadwinner and I can take a hit for a while but we need to be at $50/year before too long just to stop losing money. What are the chances of that? I'm living in KC right now, just as happy to live in Lansing or Grand Rapids, MI. (Mostly so I can be close enough to see the G6 van in person). If it's more of a self-employment thing I'd need $70/year to cover medical insurance, but that's again just getting by, not getting ahead at all.
3. Travel. How necessary is it? I have small children at home and I'm not willing to travel. Is it possible to get posted just one place?

Alternatively I'd like to get into buying cars at auction. Is that a possibility with the above questions? EDIT: not necessarily both jobs at the same time.

Thanks, guys and gals

Hey, sorry I didn't get a chance to get back to your PM...busy night last night.

Want to be sure we're talking apples to apples here.  An insurance adjuster is usually an inside desk person.  They're the ones who would take recorded statements from the drivers, get the police report, decide who is liable, and then handle paying for damages, injury, etc...  An insurance appraiser is the person who goes out to look at the cars. 

So let's talk about appraisers.  There are basically two kinds.  Staff appraisers...they're the ones who work directly for a carrier...Allsnake, Snake Farm, Nationhide, etc...  Then there are IAs.  They work for a third party (or themselves) and are hired by companies who don't have staff appraisers...or maybe need a little help.  First, understand that field appraisers are a shrinking field, both IA and staff.  This is because of technology.  But I don't think field staff/IAs are going away completely, there will always be a need for them.  Just be aware it's not as robust a field as it once was. 

I'm really not sure what carriers require now for experience...I haven't dealt with staff appraisers in many years.  I know that many carriers who do have field staff are looking for people with experience, but not all.  Many carriers have their own training program, similar to Vale, that is run "in house".  Or if they don't have training, they will send you to Vale or a similar place.  I would look at companies like Progressive or some of the other big giants.  They're more likely to have staff appraisers.  Small companies don't, because it's not cost effective.  If you want to be an independent, look at companies like PDA...I'm not sure what their hiring policy is...they are franchises.  You can use typical job search websites, or there are others like Greatinsurancejobs.com or insurancejobs.com 

Pay...Don't know about IAs, except they get paid per car.  Staff appraisers are salary.  Like I said, I haven't dealt with them directly in a while, but I'd bet starting salary is in the upper 30s to 40s.  I'd guess that with a few years under your belt you could get into the 50s easily, but don't quote me. 

Travel...unless you're assigned to CAT (catastrophe) duty, typically the only travel is local.  You'll be on the road all day, but locally.  That was one thing I enjoyed.  When I was in the field, I was both an appraiser and adjuster.  I handled both the statements/liability part AND inspected the cars (not many companies do this anymore).  I would set up my appraisal days to include Fridays.  You can be damn sure I was done visiting body shops by 1pm and headed home.  Loved it. 

If you want to be an adjuster, not all companies will hire without experience, but many will.  You won't get to be in the field and looking at cars, but you can handle physical damage claims if you want.  It's a desk job and can be high paced.  There is more money in that.  You may start in the 40s, but an adjuster with 3=5 years experience will be well into the 50s and 60s.  An adjuster who can handle the "big" claims can earn 60s, 70s, 80s....or more for the decades of experience people.

Watching with interest. 

In reply to Klayfish :

Thanks for the explanation! No rush either, I wanted to start a thread anyway to get as broad of a swath as possible.

Do any of the rest of you guys have relevant experience to add to what Klayfish said?

I used to work for State Farm and knew a few adjusters--desk folk. They seemed to fall into 3 basic camps (this was at Corporate HQ):

1: Those who were not destined to much, and stayed in the same position for years and years and years

2: Those who were really good, and quickly climbed the ladder. Seemed that anyone who was middle management or above, anywhere in the company, had paid their dues as an adjuster

3: Those became appraisers (some had already been appraisers)

The appraisers seemed to thrive on catastrophes. They'd be hoping that the storm was a big one, because they'd be happy to head out to collect 100 hours of overtime. A few I know went independent, and solely worked disasters. I don't know how much they were charging, and I don't think any of them had children, but it seemed to work for them.

I am not in the insurance industry but I'll add these thoughts...

I imagine that what makes you good at these jobs (and impresses your boss) has a lot less to do with "knowing cars" and "understanding cars" and much more to do with your ability to effectively "move paper/cases" and manage "process flow."  For IA this means the ability to get details from the body shop effectively or get to the shop yourself effectively.  From there it would then require uploading things like pictures and financial computations effectively and correctly.  

Sure, it is a job involving cars but I'll guess it is more a job about dollars, cents, required actions and checked boxes more than it is about cars.    Also, if you are facing the customer who's car got damaged I bet it is a lot to do with managing the anxiety of the customer (who is sure your are screwing them and wants it all done yesterday.)  

You additionally mention the desire to buy cars at auction.  I think it could seems an odd conflict if you have a job deciding if cars are totaled and then actually buy up those totaled cars.  But...

Buying totaled cars is not that hard depending on your states rules.  I am in Ohio and have been detailing my actions of buying totaled cars in this thread and it's linked sub-threads  

Buying the cars is the easy part.  However, these auction places are not in the "convenience" business.  What that means is that all my activities with shopping, buying and picking up these cars is Mon-Fri 8-4.  That makes it hard if you work a normal 9-5.  You can have others shop for you or others buy for you or others deliver for you but ALL of that comes at additional expense (and risk.)  Must be paid-in-full with Certified check in 2 days.  Must be removed from the facility in 4 days (M-F only).  Significant fees for missing either deadline.   

As said, the buying is the easy part.  The harder part is getting rid of the cars.  This means physically rebuilding them and getting them state certified; further more, actually unloading them at a profit.    So, how good are you at repair?  How good are you at sales (and sales of cars with questionable backgrounds)?   

I've been writing about the insurance and collision industry for a year now and I've learned a LOT about how the process works. What Klayfish said about the disappearing appraisers makes sense. You can't give an estimate on a modern car by sight anymore. It needs to be scanned, measured, and possibly disassembled to get into what really got borked in a wreck. All that takes a shop with resources.

I have a suggestion: https://jobs.coxautoinc.com/job/kansas-city/vehicle-inspector-entry-level/1645/9235151

Manheim is owned by Cox and has good benefits. It is an entry job, but it gets you in a similar profession without having to pay for training.

State Farm will hire new adjusters without any experience and train you. However, you MUST have a Bachelor's (doesn't matter what, as long as you have one), the training period is months (you are still paid your salary), and it's VERY difficult to get a job with them. 

The class I hired in with in Tulsa in May of 2006, our starting salary was $36,700. They raise pay quickly to get you stay. My first raise there was 9%.

For me, I was on the housing side handling theft and Personal Article Policies claims. I got burned out quick when I realized if I stayed long, I'd be stuck. Because I wouldn't want the paycut to start an entry-level job, and constantly telling people things weren't covered and such wears down on you. At least it did for me.

I was gone by November of 2007 into a different career that I'm still in today.

A few thoughts on the comments posted.

First, State Farm is a beast all their own.  They do things differently, so you probably don't want to use their business model for the entire industry.  They are VERY process oriented.  I can't tell you how many State Farm refugees I've interviewed over the years, it has to be 100 or more.  They're sort of like Enterprise. They'll work you to death but not teach you much.  If you stay, you climb the ladder quick.  If not, you're either stuck on an assembly line or you burn out...or both.  Most State Farm reps I interview I didn't hire because they only knew how to do 1 step in a 10 step claim handling process.  Assembly line mentality.

If you're an inside adjuster, John is right.  It's more about process flow, time management, decision making, etc...than it is about knowing nuts and bolts.  It's not just paper pushing...again unless you're State Farm...there's a ton of thought, multi-tasking, decision making, etc...involved.  You need to be smart, organized, professional, and hard working.  However, you don't need to know how to rebuild a Nissan VQ or properly tune a quad carb set up on a hot rod.  If you're a field auto apprasier, you do need to know cars pretty well.  You don't need to know how to actually do the work...I don't...but you need to know a fender from a quarter panel, what an apron assembly is, etc...  You need to be able to have an educated conversation with the body shop and customer.  And John is spot on that a lot of it is holding the hand of the anxious customer.  You'll do tons of that. 

I’m in the industry too, the people that work for me work in an office or their houses writing estimates based on photos provided by shops or customers.  

Everything Klayfish says is right on.   In addition, we also will hire those with no actual experience to certain entry level but decently paid positions if they have the right attitude and and are smart and worth investing in.  Once in the door and you prove your worth you can move up and out and around as long as your work is excellent.   I’m on my 5th job in 10 years here and making more than double what I started with, which was decent at the time. 

Klayfish said:

A few thoughts on the comments posted.

First, State Farm is a beast all their own.  They do things differently, so you probably don't want to use their business model for the entire industry.  They are VERY process oriented.  I can't tell you how many State Farm refugees I've interviewed over the years, it has to be 100 or more.  They're sort of like Enterprise. They'll work you to death but not teach you much.  If you stay, you climb the ladder quick.  If not, you're either stuck on an assembly line or you burn out...or both.  Most State Farm reps I interview I didn't hire because they only knew how to do 1 step in a 10 step claim handling process.  Assembly line mentality.

If you're an inside adjuster, John is right.  It's more about process flow, time management, decision making, etc...than it is about knowing nuts and bolts.  It's not just paper pushing...again unless you're State Farm...there's a ton of thought, multi-tasking, decision making, etc...involved.  You need to be smart, organized, professional, and hard working.  However, you don't need to know how to rebuild a Nissan VQ or properly tune a quad carb set up on a hot rod.  If you're a field auto apprasier, you do need to know cars pretty well.  You don't need to know how to actually do the work...I don't...but you need to know a fender from a quarter panel, what an apron assembly is, etc...  You need to be able to have an educated conversation with the body shop and customer.  And John is spot on that a lot of it is holding the hand of the anxious customer.  You'll do tons of that. 

I'd have to disagree that I could only handle "1 step" out of 10. As an inside adjuster, I could handle a claim from initial contact to close, that's why you're in training for approx 4 months before you ever handled one on your own. I knew how to draw up an estimate in exactimate for the door and frame that were kicked in, or the broken glass and carpet replacement, determine coverage, etc.  

Typically the only thing we "passed off" was once everything else was handled, was we then send the finishing work to a "processor" to look up a comp 55" TV or a Blu-Ray player or whatever. It doesn't make sense for the person who is making contact, writing estimates, and determining coverage to spend hours looking up thousands of dollars in replacement values, when I could get another 6-10 claims going in that time. And sometimes depending on the claim, especially high value PAP claims, I handled that as well. 

But defined processes are bad, I guess that's why Sakichi Toyoda and his manufacturing principles turned into the concept of "Lean Manufacturing" and why Toyota as a result of developing these principles further have become the largest automaker in the world. 

You worked for State Farm in 2006 and 2007, right?  Sounds like you did first party property.  A lot has changed.  Most auto adjusters now are extremely segmented.  They don't "own" claims, they work in teams. They actually call their work "task based".  State Farm has a mega complex/hub here in Atlanta.  I've interviewed dozens of people from there.  That's how they do it now. 

Defined processes are important.  I understand why they do what they do.  It creates efficiencies.  At the same time, if a State Farm adjuster who has no experience doing anything other than the State Farm way wants to leave, they don't do well in interviews.  Here's a cliff notes version of how these interviews often go:

Me: "Have you handled a bodily injury claim?"  Them: Nope. 

Me: "OK, how about a total loss?"  Them: Nope. 

Me: "Do you get to fully investigate a claim and make a liability decision?"  Them: No, we don't own files.  We work whatever file comes up (i.e. 3 other adjusters may have worked it before and may or may not have done things right/well)

Me: "How do you manage your daily activities and organize your day?"  Them: I'm assigned specific tasks at specific times, such as working mail from 10am to noon and then on phones from 1pm to 3pm

Me: "Thank you for your time, we'll be in touch if we decide to move forward"

We "owned" claims in as so much as we had the initial contact. But you would have to handle others as load and priorities changed. The building in Tulsa was roughly 1200 rep, underwriters and other assorted staff. Not huge, not tiny.

But to claim that State Farm is inferior because every claim rep isn't 100% fluent in every type of claim, seems strange to me. Housing, Auto, PAP, Commercial, Bodily Injury, etc.

Have you ever handled a theft claim that involved the homeowner killing the burglar in the entryway to the home? I did. Because someone else hasn't handled something like that means they are less capable of handling any?

We weren't assigned specific tasks at specific times. "This is your shift, get your work done."

That meant balancing incoming first contact calls, making outgoing first contact calls, making follow up calls, making referrals to SIU as necessary, handling overflow calls from other teams, etc.

I'm getting the impression you never worked for State Farm.

Dude, easy there.  No, I haven't worked for State Farm, but I'm pretty familiar with their handling processes.  Have I handled a homeowner theft claim?  No, because I'm not in personal lines homeowners, which is an entirely different line of business.  I'm talking monoline...auto adjusters doing auto adjuster things.  My problem with the way State Farm does it is the adjusters don't learn how to fully handle one line of business.  That's not just me saying it, that's the feedback I received from many adjusters.  When I ask them why they want to leave their current position, almost all of them say "I want to expand my skillset and learn how handle claims from beginning to end"...or if they have experience handling claims from the beginning they all say they like that way much better.

While I'm not a fan of it, as I said, I understand why they do what they do.  What I said from the beginning though is that you wouldn't want to use their model and apply it across the industry because it's a bit of an outlier. 

Sorry, late to the party. Was busy patching my rolled M3 back together.

Where to start? Okay, Snake Farm...a very good friend of mine works for them as an auto damage appraiser. I've met several others. I would NOT want to work for the Farm right now. None of those guys are secure in their jobs because of SF's wishy-washy, constantly changing job descriptions. Their dispatching plan right now is a complete disaster. They have to re-apply for their jobs every so many years. The only upside I see about SF is they pay really, really well but they make you earn it.

I've worked for FIVE different insurance carriers, two independent appraisal companies and two body shops in my 20+ years of doing this stuff. Being an IA sucks. You get paid by the car which means you have to be on a constant hustle. You don't typically get paid to do supplements. You usually have to supply your own vehicle and work as an independent contractor which means few if any benefits. The quality of work most IA's produce is horrendous as a result.

The industry is changing as companies try to figure out how to best integrate technology and remove that high cost thing they call labor. Nationwide is shedding people like crazy. Allsnake got rid of too many staff and is now hiring people back. The Lizard works their people to death while constantly spying on them (currently they randomly listen in on your phone conversations to see if you stick to the corporate script). Most of the big companies that advertise heavily are terrible to work for, IMO.

After being downsized out of jobs twice I was ready to call it quits in this business I actually enjoy. Fortunately one of the three companies I'd actually still want to work for in my state hired me and I'm living the dream finally. I currently make in the high 50s which is probably 'average' for my area in this job. I made far more working for The Lizard but was so stressed out I feared I wouldn't live to see retirement. That is not a joke.

Many companies (The Lizard, Progressive) prefer to hire people with NO automotive or body shop experience. This is so they can 'mold' you into the employee they want. The last two companies I was hired by preferred experienced people because they didn't need to spend a fortune on training in a world where employee loyalty isn't very high.

Most companies are keen to promote from within. If you have desire to move into management the sky is the limit. I don't want any part of that so will max out my pay grade and cruise along until retirement in my job. Hopefully.

I've found customers to generally be pretty easy to deal with provided I'm working for a GOOD company. It is rare I have a pissed off person where I currently work. Other places the claim reps would have them pre-irritated so when I got to them they were already unhappy and I had to try to undo a negative experience.

Benefits are typically good and certainly better than any body shop job. I get 4 weeks of PTO after my first year! I'd have to work at a shop for at least five years to get 2 weeks off.

With the way cars and digital estimating are going I think I'd recommend property vs auto to someone wanting to enter the industry unless sitting at a desk reviewing estimates and photos sounds like fun. I enjoy being on my own in the field too much.