History in the Making: Russian Invasion

aircooled said:

I also wanted to throw it (sorry for the barrage of posts):

The current situation is VERY similar to the Battle of Britain in a way.   The German eventually became frustrated that they could not make any progress in achieving their goal in suppressing the British Air Force.  An accidental bombing of London (normally not a target, because, why bomb civilians, they have nothing to do with defeating the Air Force), eventually led to a full out campaign, the London Blitz, to destroy London and break the British will to fight.

The London Blitz of course had the opposite of the intended affect.  It did not break the will of the British, it solidified it in anger and motivation to fight back!!

That is of course the concern with taking the fight back to Moscow. If the "elite" (normal city dwellers to us as opposed to minorities in impoverished outpost towns) have been fed a diet of fake news and believe that the invasion is just and that only surgical military strikes are being carried out, this kind of thing will solidify resolve and pump up Putins support where he needs it. 

Morning Vikki! Or evening for you I suppose, lol

In reply to bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) :

Could also be a moment like landing your plane in the red square too, be a perfect excuse to remove people who politically are in your way like Gorbachev.

In reply to aircooled :

This is a picture of the attack on Kyiv - it's not Moscow!!!

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

Hi! good evening - yes 

Goog morning for you!!! 

I'm going to try to avoid going too deep down the Battle of Britain rabbit hole here, but among the important points to consider is that the BoB was always fundamentally an operational-level exercise. Strategically, elimination of the RAF (or the Chain Home/Chain Home Low networks) meant little on its own. Germany's strategic push was always the U-boat war; it, like the Allied strategic bombing effort, targeted the means by which Britain was able to keep fighting. Without continuous supply and shipping to deliver it, Britain would have lost the war; without fuel and a transportation network to deliver it, Germany did lose the war. There are other factors, of course, but in this context that's what matters. There is a rich literature on the subject: in addition to countless books on the Battle of Britain and the U-boat and strategic bombing campaigns, books such as Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy and Robert Pape's Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War explore broader strategic and political aspects.

In Ukraine, there has been no strategic-level warfare on either side. The Russians could be targeting all the logistical nodes where Western supplies are transiting, preferably as close to the border as possible, but these have been largely left alone (another indication that Russia is concerned about limiting the conflict, rhetoric aside). Similarly, they have continued to pump natural gas through the pipeline that runs through Ukraine, and both sides have cooperated on the grain export arrangement. Further, Ukraine lacks the means to strike most Russian strategic targets. Neither side has much opportunity for strategic warfare, and even movements on an operational scale have been minimal since the early phase (the rumored offensive could change that, of course), so it's been mostly tactical slogging for very limited outcomes. Even though a successful offensive operation could have important implications for the outcome, these will be political, not strategic.

VikkiDp said:

In reply to aircooled :

This is a picture of the attack on Kyiv - it's not Moscow!!!

My apologies!  Thank you for the correction.

(Yes, now I am seeing I hastily posted that pic from information that was next to the Moscow attack info)

(I corrected the picture on that post)

In reply to 02Pilot :

Ah yes, very good point about the U-boat war.  That was clearly a attempt to destroy the British "means of production" (which of course was the US).

Also wanted to point out:  The drone attacks on Moscow could very well be Russia "London Blitzing" themselves to rile up support.  There was a lot of indication the previous Kremlin attack was.  One of the failings of the Russians in these cases is that they seem not to realized that having the responce all ready to go the moment of the attack kind of tips their hand!

Also wanted to clarify, the reason for mentioning the Blitz point is that the Russians seem to have recently pointed a lot of attacks at Kyiv, but not for any seemingly obvious military reason.

https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/zsu-urazyly-rosijsku-gaubytsyu-na-terytoriyi-rf/

The Armed Forces hit a Russian howitzer on the territory of the Russian Federation

Tankers with fuel derailed in the Russian Federation, sabotage is possible

Russian media assumed that the cause of the incident could be sabotage - traces of damage to railway tracks were allegedly found on the spot.

The "Rospartizan" Telegram channel said that it was sabotage on the railway.

However, this information has not been confirmed. The fact of sabotage is also denied by the emergency services working at the scene.

*****************************

Yeah, what would the emergency services on the scene know anyway.   Must have been sabotage.

Lots of interesting rhetoric being thrown around recently

"Wagner boss Prigozhin rips into Russia's military leaders after drone attack on Moscow: 'Let your houses burn'"

"It’s very simple. You have to join the union between Belarus and Russia, and that’s it: There will be nuclear weapons for everyone,” Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko"

Ah yes.  Join the Union between Russia and Belarus.  I think this best expresses what most sane nations would think of that:

“I Enjoyed The Joke.” Tokayev Responded To Lukashenka’s Proposal To Join The Union State

Kazakh President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev has dismissed as a joke Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko’s statement that Kazakhstan may join the Union State of Russia and Belarus. Videos of statement Tokayev was published by his press service in Telegram.

“Recently, the President of the Republic of Belarus, Alexander Grigoryevich Lukashenko, offered Kazakhstan to join the Union State. I liked his joke. other integration associations, first and foremost the Eurasian Economic Union,” Tokayev said......

https://www.easternherald.com/2023/05/29/i-enjoyed-the-joke-tokayev-responded-to-lukashenkas-proposal-to-join-the-union-state/

I think this kind of confirms that Russia did not coordinate the drone attack:

Russian President Vladimir Putin attempted to downplay the drone attack on Moscow to avoid exposing the limited options he has to retaliate against Ukraine. Putin claimed that Russian forces struck the Ukrainian military intelligence headquarters “two [to] three days ago” and claimed that the Russian Armed Forces continue to respond to Ukraine’s “war against Donbas” by striking Ukrainian military infrastructure.[13] Putin insinuated that the drone strike on Moscow was Kyiv’s response to Russian strikes, and the Russian MoD conveniently claimed on May 30 that Russian forces carried out “a group of strikes with long-range high-precision air-launched weapons at main decision-making centers” in Ukraine.[14] The Russian MoD did not claim that it had struck the Ukrainian military intelligence headquarters recently and there is no available confirmation of Putin’s claim.[15] Putin stated that Ukraine is trying to provoke a response and make Russia “mirror” its actions. Putin’s emphasis on past and ongoing missile strikes is likely an attempt to signal that Russia is already actively retaliating and does not need to respond to further Ukrainian provocations. Putin has consistently retaliated against genuine and purported Ukrainian actions by ordering massive missile and drone campaigns, likely due to Russian forces’ inability to achieve any decisive effects on the battlefield.[16]

Putin additionally pushed numerous Kremlin boilerplate narratives aimed at maintaining domestic support for the Russian war effort and villainizing the West. Putin also noted that, while the Moscow air defense systems “worked normally,” Russia still needs to “work” on improving these systems – a notable attempt to preempt criticism from Russian ultra-nationalists who have been criticizing Russia’s ineffective air defense systems in Moscow and along the Russian border regions with Ukraine.[17] Putin also accused Ukraine of threatening to destabilize the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) and using “dirty devices” – both default Russian false narratives that the Kremlin uses during Russian military failures.[18]

In reply to aircooled :

The fact that they're downplaying it is certainly an indication that it wasn't a false flag operation, but saying it confirms it might be going a bit far. It's entirely conceivable that it's all an elaborate double bluff. It's also possible that the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. If and when the truth comes out, it'll be a damned interesting story.

True enough.

Along those lines, I just saw a few week old 60 minutes that was about Radio Free Europe and they claim they get a lot of views from Russia.  Not sure how they know though since they said they would need to use a VPN, and the whole point of one of those is so you cannot tell where you are viewing from.

If true, then there are a least some Russians getting an outside source of info.

"It’s very simple. You have to join the union between Belarus and Russia, and that’s it: There will be nuclear weapons for everyone,” Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko

**********

Why do I think behind closed doors Lukashenko is yelling "You've altered the deal!" And Putin is replying "Pray I do not alter it further."

Joking aside, if Lukashenko and Belarus were given a way out, would they take it?  And then would Russia attempt to prop up a new government head in Belarus?

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.

Show/hide post

 

In reply to aircooled :

Funny how I questioned the new sources here and someone posts an article of Moscow being hit by drones and it is actually Kiev.  Odd isn't it?  I trust nothing from the mainstream media, and for good reason.  Everyone should be wary of western mainsteam media. 

 

some people really are scared of a different opinion. Why this was down voted when its common sense to question whats fed to us at least a littke is beyond me. 

In reply to bobzilla :

Sometimes how you say something is as important as what you say. I don't think many people actually disagree about how much the media can be trusted. 
Why would you assume that downvoting is because people are "scared"?

Let's try to keep this on topic.

https://mil.in.ua/uk/news/rosiyany-pidirvaly-dorogu-z-chernigivshhyny-na-bryansk/

The Russians blew up the road from Chernihiv Oblast to Bryansk

Russian troops struck on the Chernihiv-Bryansk road.

The road is located on the border between Ukraine, Russia and Belarus, and the place of impact is next to the "Three Sisters" monument, which symbolizes the "friendship of three peoples". It is located in Senkivka, Chernihiv Oblast.

A video of the explosion was published online. The monument was not damaged, and the extent of the destruction of the road surface is unknown.

********************

Yeah, so there!  We (Russians) blew up this road to this monument that represents our friendship!  Take that!

Sounds like, things happening soon... or not... but it cannot be much longer now.  For the good of everyone involved, I do hope the Russians just collapse like they seem to have numerous times already.

Give those orcs hell boys (and girls)!!

"In the coming days, you will see a rather impressive show of force from the Ukrainians," said US Senator Lindsey Graham, hinting at an imminent Ukrainian counteroffensive.

The initial priority, he said, should be "the return of some strategic places." He said that "formation operations" - that is, strikes that stretch the Russian defense and confuse the enemy's plans - are already underway, "meaning that the counter-offensive itself is likely to begin relatively soon."

 

"In the coming days, you will see a rather impressive show of force from the Ukrainians," said US Senator Lindsey Graham, hinting at an imminent Ukrainian counteroffensive.

The initial priority, he said, should be "the return of some strategic places." He said that "formation operations" - that is, strikes that stretch the Russian defense and confuse the enemy's plans - are already underway, "meaning that the counter-offensive itself is likely to begin relatively soon."

Some people (US Senator Lindsey Graham) should just STFU.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.

Show/hide post

 

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

In reply to bobzilla :

Sometimes how you say something is as important as what you say. I don't think many people actually disagree about how much the media can be trusted. 
Why would you assume that downvoting is because people are "scared"?

Let's try to keep this on topic.

By "on topic" do you mean censoring anything you don't like?  If the quality of the information isn't topical, then why is it not topical?  Let's try to be factual as well.

 

While I find AnthonyGS's posts consistently annoying, I wish that whoever keeps downvoting his posts would quit. It just feeds his sense of persecution and self-righteousness. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

Yea, just ignore him.  Right now, on this board, it a good illustration of democracy.  Most people support Ukraine, less people don't.  So as a unit, we support Ukraine in their struggle.  Some people are really loud in saying so in either way.

But the majority want to support Ukraine, so we do.

Noddaz said:

 

"In the coming days, you will see a rather impressive show of force from the Ukrainians," said US Senator Lindsey Graham, hinting at an imminent Ukrainian counteroffensive.

The initial priority, he said, should be "the return of some strategic places." He said that "formation operations" - that is, strikes that stretch the Russian defense and confuse the enemy's plans - are already underway, "meaning that the counter-offensive itself is likely to begin relatively soon."

Some people (US Senator Lindsey Graham) should just STFU.

I agree with you regarding STFU for Graham.  Do you find it as ironic As I do  that those who have never risked their lives doing military duty are so anxious to tell those who do or are risking their lives  what to do?