I thought we had some dumb rules, but at least I can do CPR

http://gma.yahoo.com/elderly-woman-dies-nurse-refuses-182806550.html

A 911 dispatcher pleaded with a nurse at a Bakersfield, Calif., senior living facility to save the life of an elderly woman by giving her CPR, but the nurse said policy did not allow her to, according to a newly released audiotape of the call. "Is there anybody there that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?" the dispatcher asked in a recording of the 911 call released by the Bakersfield Fire Department.

"Not at this time," the nurse said.

The incident unfolded on Tuesday when 87-year-old Lorraine Bayless collapsed at Glenwood Gardens, a senior living facility in Bakersfield.

In the seven-minute, 16-second recording, the nurse told the dispatcher it was against the facility's policy for employees to perform CPR on residents.

With every passing second, Bayless' chances of survival were diminishing. The dispatcher's tone turned desperate.

"Anybody there can do CPR. Give them the phone please. I understand if your facility is not willing to do that. Give the phone to that passerby," the dispatcher said. "This woman is not breathing enough. She is going to die if we don't get this started."

After several minutes, an ambulance arrived and took Bayless to Mercy Southwest Hospital, where she died.

Glenwood Gardens released a statement confirming its policy prohibiting employees from performing CPR.

"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community, our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives. That is the protocol we followed," the statement said.

Despite protocol being followed, the nursing home said it would launch an internal investigation into the matter.

I took a required CPR class recently from The Red Cross.
The whole class just came off as a money grab. It was nearly $90 for the all day class. Step 1 for everything was to call 911. You could almost read the unwritten litigation on the page which pretty much said, "only get involved as much as you absolutely have to (the bare minimum)."

Have you done a 1st aid/CPR course lately.

About 75% of the training is. "Dial 911"

My dad has been bed-ridden for 12+ years, now he's basically paralyzed below the waist. At home he uses the side rails to roll himself over to prevent bed sores. He was put in a nursing home for 2 months and they would not put side rails on because they are a form of restraint. They also didn't turn him very often at all. He left that place with a bedsore that went down to his 'tail bone'. That required 2 months in the hospital. I could see my fathers spine!! That pain and expense could have been avoided had they put the side rails on that he requested. The system is broken.

Sound like a litigation stalemate: take action and fail, get sued, fail to take action, get sued.

In reply to Mitchell:

Further proof that humanity has lost its morals and is setting itself up to fail.

Chance of survival if you require CPR is between 2 and 8%. No mention is made if the 87 year old woman was full code, or had a DNR.

That said, there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting, so that shouldn't enter into it. As our instructors always say, "You can't do it wrong. They're dead. If they come back, you did it right, if not, you still did it right."

bastomatic wrote: Chance of survival if you require CPR is between 2 and 8%. No mention is made if the 87 year old woman was full code, or had a DNR.

A DNR was my first guess.

I'd think if there was a DNR then the nurse would have said so .. maybe not

bastomatic wrote: Chance of survival if you require CPR is between 2 and 8%. No mention is made if the 87 year old woman was full code, or had a DNR. That said, there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting, so that shouldn't enter into it. As our instructors always say, "You can't do it wrong. They're dead. If they come back, you did it right, if not, you still did it right."

QFT

(although I think 2% is too high....)

I have successfully performed both CPR and the Hiemlich, so take that for what it's worth, but 2 lives are around due solely to the 1st aid training I had when a kid.

In no way am I belittling training, just the fear that is resulting in non training

bastomatic wrote: That said, there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting, so that shouldn't enter into it.

No. Varies with location. Here, an untrained individual giving CPR is protected, but as a trained individual, I am not. The state required me to sign documents acknowledging my legal liability as part of my CPR training.

wbjones wrote: I'd think if there was a DNR then the nurse would have said so .. maybe not

Would they call an ambulance if there was a DNR and she'd already coded?

bastomatic wrote: ... there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting...

I think it's called the "good samaritan" law.

I have a very close relative that is has just moved from Independent living to Assisted living, although currently is in the nursing home for another week or so. She is 88. I also volunteered in a nursing home for 8 years. I am also certified Red Cross CPR--I actually got college credit for it.

My uneducated opinion based on my experiences is that if you were to do CPR on the average octogenarian, you would break their ribs and/or sternum, cause much more pain, and they would likely still die. If they didn't, the pain that they would have to deal with would be... well, I'm not going to say anything about it for anyone else, but I'm not sure I would want CPR performed.

This woman was 87. It is sad. But it is not a tragedy, and frankly I'm not quite sure that it should even be a news story. If the episode had happened 12 hours earlier or later, the report would have been in the obituaries rather than the front page, and it would have read: "Lorraine Bayless died peacefully in her sleep Tuesday night".

I have to keep my CPR paper up to date which means yearly re certification The guy I last took the class from was an EMS and said he could count the people that actually lived 24hrs and were not vegetables. This is after years of service, CPR is pretty much a waste of time as is.

I hear other countries have some new ideas in other countries, things like oxygen rich injections

jere wrote: I have to keep my CPR paper up to date which means yearly re certification The guy I last took the class from was an EMS and said he could count the people that actually lived 24hrs and were not vegetables. This is after years of service, CPR is pretty much a waste of time as is. I hear other countries have some new ideas in other countries, things like oxygen rich injections

if someone's already dead, there's nothing to lose by trying to save them- you aren't going to make it any worse. but i guess it does get tricky with the elderly or other people that are already hanging on by a thread anyways..

i've been trying for a while to get someone on my shift at work thru a cpr course.. there's only 4 of us- a 73 year old, a 65 year old, a 38 year old (me), and a 35 year old. the two older guys are in decent shape for their age, but they are at an age when you just never know, and the other guy and myself are not physically in the best of shape (i'm 5'11" and 240 pounds, the other guy is about 6' and at least 300 pounds) and have a history of high blood pressure and early heart attacks and what not in our families... we used to have a cpr trained guy on our shift, but he went to day shift about a year ago..

we also have 4 debibrilators scattered around the shop, but none of us on nights have any training on how to use it.. yeah, i know they are supposed to be easy to use, but when shtf and a guy's laid out after a sudden heart attack someone with at least some basic training to fall back on would be better than 3 people that have no idea what to do..

this company just paid Dog knows how much money to send 15 of us workers (including me... grrr...) to a 3 day class on "communications" to teach us how to not offend people when we complain to them, but they won't send one or two of us to a class that could potentially save someone's life..

Implied Consent. 2nd thing they teach you.

Actually there is a caveat to CPR training... If you refuse to use that training to help someone, you are perceived as being negligent and can be sued.

Even if she was a DNR and it was known, there are many ways around it to save their life. Most DNR's revolve around "extraordinary measures", which has multiple meanings depending on who and how you ask. So, is CPR an extraordinary measure? And just the little factoid here, is DNR's do not apply to surgical intervention situations, mostly due to the nature of the sedation to perform the surgery make cause you to "die".

RealMiniDriver wrote:

bastomatic wrote: ... there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting...

I think it's called the "good samaritan" law.

I don't think that holds up if you are a trained medical professional (ie nurse).

spitfirebill wrote:

RealMiniDriver wrote:

bastomatic wrote: ... there are laws on the books to protect anyone who gives CPR from legal action resulting...

I think it's called the "good samaritan" law.

I don't think that holds up if you are a trained medical professional (ie nurse).

I highly doubt any legal action would hold up in court unless you were inappropriately administering medications.

The most effective resuscitation is early defibrillation. I've never had people come back by beating on their chest, it only prolongs the inevitable unless a defibrillator is found, AND the person's primary problem is that they are in a shockable rhythm.

This 87 year old died when her heart stopped - end of story.

My best friend is a firefighter and EMT. He's had to do CPR on a number of elderly people and he said that he hates it - you have to do firm compressions to be effective, but doing so often crushes their ribs to the point where even if the CPR resuscitates them they are in immediate jeopardy due to the damage to their chest cavity.

If a nursing home staff member saves a life through CPR only to have the patient die at the hospital a few hours later due to internal bleeding or a collapsed lung, have they really helped that patient?

nderwater wrote: My best friend is a firefighter and EMT. He's had to do CPR on a number of elderly people and he said that he hates it - you have to do firm compressions to be effective, but doing so often crushes their ribs to the point where even if the CPR resuscitates them they are in real jeopardy due to the damage to their chest cavity.

I'll relate a story my wife was directly involved with....

She was on call a few Sundays ago, when she got paged to come in for a full code. Well, long story shortened down, the lil ole lady quit breathing on the normal floor and got transferred into surgical ICU to make a quick entrance to the OR on the other side of the hallway. Well, a few days previous, she had a CABG done. During the chest compressions to keep the blood flowing, either one of the chest wires or the sawed in half sternum put a nice clean cut in the mammary artery.... (I hope some people see where this is going...) Well anyways... The chest gets cracked open in the very unclean ICU room to fix the bleeder plus to do some internal heart massage.... The surgeon gets it stitched up in the ICU room just to wheel her over to the OR basically just to clean her up and close up the now open chest cavity with some new chest wires and sutures.

Then fast forward two days...Just as my wife is walking into the surgical employee lounge area to change into work clothes, the closed doors to the SICU are open. She notices the bed where all this happened is EMPTY....... But then the chest drain pack was on the floor next to the chair. She goes and gets dressed and goes back. This lil ole lady is sitting in that chair, awake, and talking. She talks to her for a few minutes and a few days later, the lady gets discharged home.

Oh and personal experience, breaking ribs is not a nice feeling either. BTDT.

Just saw this story, the lady did not have a DNR. I'd risk my job to have a shot at saving a life. Company policy be damned.

In reply to PeterAK:

I'm pretty sure that'd be a company policy that could lead to many many wrongful discharge lawsuits....