Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos)
Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) MegaDork
3/23/22 8:01 p.m.

I'm not wanting to argue, I'm just pointing out one of the items that made me think the whole thing wasn't for me. This response is a fast and half-thought reply; if desired I can go into it more later or answer specific questions. 

The passage in question is a take on Matt. 22:34-40 that paints Jesus as the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, and the start of the new one. The New Covenant is much simplified because the laws in the Torah had been turned into confusing mess mess by religious leaders, and had been leveraged in different ways depending on interpretation. 

[A Pharisee lawyer] asked him a question, to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

Another conundrum is that Matt. 5:17-19 clouds the waters:

“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

Further hair-tearing out can happen when the interpretations say that the Jewish people are *STILL* bound by the laws in the Torah, but that they don't apply to Christians. Which is kind of absurd, because only ONE interpretation of faith can be correct if they are the indisputable word of god. I'm not a religious scholar by any means, but it's a topic of lively debate amongst them, with opinions running the spectrum depending on what viewpoint they are trying to support or erode. The word of God shouldn't be contradictory. These contradctions always bothered me.

Viewpoints that I've heard from people where they try to dissect these teachings and through prayer and contemplation delve through the power structures and bullE36 M3 to the heart of the matter *do* tend to agree that living a life according to " You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is probably the most universal and closest to god somebody can get.

In my life, I can do that without any supernatural god(s), tithes, churches and the like. It'll be easy to misinterpret this, but each person is their own god, in that (outside of serious mental illness) they have free will to live their life as close to or as far away from that universal commandment as they wish. 

Some fast links I dug up on the subject that probably just begin to touch on how deep the debate can run:

https://hallel.info/matthew-22vv34-40-mark-12vv28-34-luke-10vv25-37-do-the-greatest-and-second-greatest-commandments-dissolve-the-torah/

https://reknew.org/2017/01/jesus-refuted-old-testament-laws/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_the_Old_Covenant

 

matthewmcl
matthewmcl Dork
3/23/22 8:16 p.m.

In reply to Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) :

Interesting, thank you. I can't say that I feel your same confusion from those passages, but that is fine since it is up to each of us to decide. I will certainly follow those links. Thank you again.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/23/22 10:39 p.m.

If anyone happens to be interested, I think a good read is "Conversations With God" by Neale Donald Walsch.  I read it as a piece of philosophy, but I found that it more or less takes all the contradictions and troublesome parts of religion (all religions, although the author is of a Christian background) and kinda fills in the gaps.

Again, not intended as an endorsement of what the book SAYS and not suggesting that it is any new truth for everyone, I just found it to be a fantastic read.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/24/22 8:06 a.m.
spitfirebill said:
ddavidv said:

"And we look around and see an entire community that's brainwashed, the women oppressed, an entire people held back by their beliefs."

Welcome to my neighborhood:  Amish country.

And I was called judgemental in the other tread.  

...but we can be fairly certain there are no Amish people on an online motorsports forum to argue with.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/24/22 8:38 a.m.
Beer Baron said:

...but we can be fairly certain there are no Amish people on an online motorsports forum to argue with.

They build a hell of barn so I suggest we give these specific religious nuts a pass. cool

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/24/22 8:56 a.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Beer Baron said:

...but we can be fairly certain there are no Amish people on an online motorsports forum to argue with.

They build a hell of barn so I suggest we give these specific religious nuts a pass. cool

Totally. People like to use masonite to surface skateramps. My wife has a tendency to call it 'menonite'.

Which has made me think that there's nothing that would prevent Amish from skating, and I bet they could build a some killer ramps.

ddavidv
ddavidv UltimaDork
3/24/22 9:30 a.m.
spitfirebill said:
ddavidv said:

"And we look around and see an entire community that's brainwashed, the women oppressed, an entire people held back by their beliefs."

Welcome to my neighborhood:  Amish country.

And I was called judgemental in the other tread.  

Is it being judgemental if it's fact?

Okay, "brainwashed" may be too strong of a term.  How about 'indoctrinated'?

Women oppressed:  definitely

Held back by their beliefs:  I'm sure they don't think so. I suppose if one willingly wants to live in the 19th century that is their choice. But their restrictive lifestyle has been forced to adopt exceptions just to survive (cell phones, for example) in the current world.  They've been forced out of several locales because their way of life can't generate an income to survive.

I've lived among them my entire life, so am very familiar. To the outside world their lives appear simple and quaint. And they are agreeable people in many ways. Almost always honest. But the way they treat their family members, other sect members and their animals can be a bit too much like biblical times.

Antihero (Forum Supporter)
Antihero (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
3/24/22 10:10 a.m.
Nick Comstock said:
yupididit said:

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

So it's part of being a Christian to try to bring people to Christ? 

Why are some so aggressive about it and why do some seem not to care or try? 

Side note about this and my personal experiences. 

I've been on the receiving end of some of this.  Even though I am a believer.  Usually it's people trying to get me to their church. I don't particularly like those discussions and I shut them down quickly but I've never been angry over it.  

On the other hand I've had a few going the other way.  Atheists that approach and then get angry when I tell them I believe.  I had one nearly turn physical because he wouldn't leave me alone (Austin is a weird town).

From my point of view angry athiests are much more annoying than evangelical Christians.  

As I said previously I generally don't discuss religion.  Especially with someone I don't know.  But if I'm asked I'll say I do believe. I don't judge anyone else for their beliefs or non beliefs.  It simply doesn't matter that much to me. But I've had worse experiences with atheists than theists thus far in my life. 

Admittedly I stayed out of this thread a lot and haven't deeply read into it but I can say that I've had the very opposite, the worst people I've met are religious but my theory is that they are claiming to be religious rather than actually believing. This is one reason why it's dangerous to judge people by their stated beliefs rather than their actions.

 

My personal belief is that faith is deeply personal and shouldn't be swayed by anything, let alone people talking to you. I am not religious at all 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/24/22 10:15 a.m.
Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Admittedly I stayed out of this thread a lot and haven't deeply read into it but I can say that I've had the very opposite, the worst people I've met are religious but my theory is that they are claiming to be religious rather than actually believing. This is one reason why it's dangerous to judge people by their stated beliefs rather than their actions.

Quoted for all the truth in the universe.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/24/22 10:30 a.m.
Beer Baron said:
spitfirebill said:
ddavidv said:

"And we look around and see an entire community that's brainwashed, the women oppressed, an entire people held back by their beliefs."

Welcome to my neighborhood:  Amish country.

And I was called judgemental in the other tread.  

...but we can be fairly certain there are no Amish people on an online motorsports forum to argue with.

Total sidenote... last week I had an Amish guy giving me a roofing estimate at work and he was using a company cell phone with an app taking pictures.  I was teasing him about having a license to operate one of those fancy things.  He just said "yeah, don't tell the preacher."  The app kept crashing so he handed me the the phone and said "here, you probably have more experience with these."

gearheadE30
gearheadE30 Dork
3/24/22 11:38 a.m.

There's a lot of very personal ground covered here and I mostly came here to say that on no other forum would this thread have made it to page 13 without getting locked and mods giving the old ban hammer a few good swings. Well done.

 

For my part, I thought I was very religious for many years. Then I moved, and realized that I was actually just really good friends with a great group of people that all went to the same church. In the last 5-10 years as other people in that group moved away, all but one of them eventually reached the same conclusion. Many different paths to get there, but it has been interesting to see and talk about with them. The key was that they all found different non-religious social groups in their new homes, aside from the one who found a new church. I would guess that camaraderie is a really big part of it - people like being part of a 'tribe', and there is no doubt to me that most religions build a very effective social network among their members.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/28/22 1:58 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to TheRev :

That same religious right sponsored so many BS justifications.  Dan White murdered Harvey Milk and was acquitted because he was "troubled" due to the chemicals present in all the twinkies he ate.  He wasn't labeled for what he was - an amoral homophobic shiny happy person, he just ate too many twinkies.  He was a Christian, Milk was gay, it was totally justified because Jesus.

I was in High School in that area when the Milk/Moscone murders went down. There was a lot more to that than White's support from the religious right. Dan White was old school San Francisco, Irish, grew up in an Irish Neighborhood and went to work in the San Francisco Fire Department that was filled with other old school Irishmen. When he was elected to the Board of Supervisors he represented an old school Irish neighborhood of people who had lived there forever, and all of the people in that neighborhood were hostile towards the newly forming gay community that was just starting to form down the road in the Castro. Harvey Milk was an outsider. A Jewish guy from New York who had worked on Wall Street, came out of the closet and decided to move to San Francisco and buy a Camera Shop in the Castro District. Most of the people the San Francisco's gay community at the time had moved to San Francisco from somewhere else. A large number of gay men who had been stationed in San Francisco had been expelled from the military and stayed there instead of going back home to be ostracized. Milk became politically active when the San Francisco Police Department literally went to war against the gay bars. Dan White, a fireman, was on the other side of that war.

This was beyond homophobia. There was a fear of all of the new people coming in from other places and taking over the old neighborhoods. Most of the people at that time happened to be gay. Now, strangely enough, the established LBGQ community is actually getting pushed out by the Silicon Valley bunch because of the high rents and there is resentment about that. Things are always changing and people are always afraid of change.

This is kind of exactly my point, though.  Milk was killed because "gay," and White walked because "fireman, war vet, irish, Christian"

I found this kind of interesting. Harvey Milk's protege is getting tossed out of his San Francisco apartment by an investor who wants to rent to high income Silicon Valley Bros. First the Irish and the Italians got pushed out by the gays, now the gays are getting pushed out by the Silicon Valley Bros. Long term residents are throwing rocks at the Google buses. And the beat goes on...

https://www.sfgate.com/local/article/SF-LGBTQ-activist-Cleve-Jones-Castro-rent-doubled-17032088.php

 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
3/28/22 2:21 p.m.

I believe Milk also betrayed White on some deal he had agreed to.  Certainly not justification for murder, but there was more to it than just "gay bad".

I very much remember being on the playground during PE in middle school (across the bay) when they announced he was shot, I think it was Mayor Feinstien (now senator) who made the announcement.  I of course had no idea who he was, but it was significant enough that they let every one know.  The only other time I remember that same type of interruption in school was when Regan was shot.  Obviously other significant things happened, just not during school time (e.g. Challenger was too early in the morning on the west coast).

Edit: sorry Moscone was the mayor, he was shot also (also was seen as to betray him), Feinstien replaced him.

White was angry that Moscone had refused to reappoint him to his seat on the Board of Supervisors, from which he had just resigned, and that Milk had lobbied heavily against his reappointment. 

And of course, he also shot the mayor, who was not gay.  I don't think even at the time it was assumed he was killed because he was gay (as I remember it).  It was more a big deal because he was a bit of an icon to the gay community at the time and it was a big loss.

Sorry for the tangent, just sparked the memory and I do think it is important to keep historical events in as much context as possible.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
3/28/22 2:27 p.m.
Beer Baron said:
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:
Beer Baron said:

...but we can be fairly certain there are no Amish people on an online motorsports forum to argue with.

They build a hell of barn so I suggest we give these specific religious nuts a pass. cool

Totally. People like to use masonite to surface skateramps. My wife has a tendency to call it 'menonite'.

Which has made me think that there's nothing that would prevent Amish from skating, and I bet they could build a some killer ramps.

I bet they would be pretty awesome at it too. My cousins used to play basketball with some Amish kids. Some of them, by their accounts, could have a very good chance at going pro if they were to go to high school and college. But they don't, they're done playing basketball by the time they're done with school in 8th grade. 

And FWIW, my cousins that are telling me this are very good players - two have records hanging from the rafters of their Indiana high school, and one of them and his team made it to the D3 Final 4 this year. 

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
3/29/22 11:47 a.m.

I appreciate the discussion happening here.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/29/22 1:20 p.m.

One of the things I frequently consider about my perceptions of theism in general is the similarities between many world religions.  When you boil them all down, they have a lot in common, including multiple pre-Christian religions that share stories and similar names to Judeo-Christian texts.  I'm not countering any religious beliefs, simply sharing what I encountered in my religion studies over the years.  The similarities in hundreds of religious texts that date thousands of years before Christianity does two things for me - gives me pause on Christianity as a faith I would choose to follow, but also lends credibility to many on the existence of SOME higher power, whatever it is.  If all of these same stories appear in multiple religions, maybe none of them get it right but maybe they are all just retelling some universal truth in their own twist.

Horus was the sun god of ancient Egypt.  He was born of a virgin on December 25th.  His coming was signaled by a star in the East.  He was anointed by three kings, baptized at 30, and even had 12 disciples.  He even walked on water.  He is referenced in Heiroglyphs as "the lamb of God, the light, the shepherd, and the son of God."  He was betrayed by one of his disciples, crucified, buried for three days, and rose from the dead.  

Attis of Greece. Born on Dec 25th of a virgin, crucified, dead for three days, resurrected

Krishna.  Born of a virgin on Dec 25th, star in the east, 12 disciples, resurrected after death.

Dionysis.  Born on Dec 25th of a virgin, traveling teacher with disciples, turned water into wine, referred to as "the king of kings, god's only begotten son, the alpha and omega," and resurrected after death.

Mithra of Persia.  Born of a virgin on Dec 25th, had 12 disciples, performed miracles including walking on water, was crucified, dead for three days, and resurrected.

Chrishna of Hindostan, Salivahana of Bermuda, Zhule and Osiris of Egypt, Odin in Scandinavia, Crite of Chaldea (strangely similar  name to Christ), Zoroaster, Baal of phoenecia, Indra of Tibet, Bali of Afghanistan, Jao of Nepal, Wittoba, Thimuz, Sammonocadam of Siam, Alcides, Quexalcote, Ixion, Quirinus, Prometheus.... I could go on forever with the number of gods that all have the same messiah story throughout history.  Plus you have the accompanying names that exist in many of the texts.  Abraham to Jews was Abram to Caananites.  Moses was Meses to Egyptians.

In reality, it's likely astrologically based.  I'm not saying it isn't real, and maybe some people believe that God left us the stars' alignment as a reminder or proof. Sirius (the eastern star) aligns with three bright stars in Orion's belt (the three kings) in a line on December 24th.   If you draw a line down through the three kings and sirius, it points to the latitude at which the sun rises on Dec 25th in much of the populated world at the time.  The birth of the Son (Sun) is to follow the alignment of the three kings following the eastern star.

The virgin Mary (as the constellation's symbol of Virgo) is a virgin holding a sheave of wheat representative of the August and harvest, and the constellation is known as "the house of bread."  Bethlehem literally translates from Hebrew to House of Bread and closely translates to House of Meat in Arabic.  Successful harvest and the production of food was life itself.  Ancient texts suggest that Bethlehem was named after the constellation and therefore given to the story of Christ's birth since it followed that he came from the virgin who represented the culmination of the harvest made possible only by the Sun.  The entire year for ancient civilizations relied on the sun for their existence, and the harvest meant they could not die for another year.  December 25th is simply when the stars align and they gave thanks to God (the sun) for their house of bread (borne of the virgin)

One also has to remember that Israel was not a physical place before 1948.  Israel was a region.  Israel means "man seeing god" and Jacob was given the name Israel after wrestling with an angel.  Israel is a concept.  The origin and birthplace of the Jews.  We just gave it a boundary and called it a country 75 years ago.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/29/22 1:28 p.m.

There is also the concept of the Sun's death.  As you approach the Winter solstice, the sun moves further and further to the horizon.  Crops die, winter comes, and it was perceived as the death of the sun.  It reaches its lowest point on Dec 22nd in the vicinity of the constellation of the southern cross where it stops and stays mostly static for three days, 22nd, 23rd, and 24th. then on Dec 25th it starts rising again.  The sun (son) dies on the cross, is dead for three days, then resurrection.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/29/22 2:35 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

A huge number of cultures around the world have legends of dragons, too. These legends spawned independently of each other. Same thing with vampirism.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
3/29/22 2:35 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

My understanding is Biblical scholars recognize Jesus as not being born on Dec 25, but celebrate that date so as to align with other religious celebrations to avoid persecution.  Given how alternative religions were generally frowned upon in ancient times far more so than today (back to that "power over peoples through faith" discussion), I would imagine that line of thinking was not original either.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
3/29/22 2:49 p.m.
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

My understanding is Biblical scholars recognize Jesus as not being born on Dec 25, but celebrate that date so as to align with other religious celebrations to avoid persecution.

Another interpretation is that the early Christian church chose that date in order to co-opt and re-brand existing festival days as their own.  It's easier to persuade people to your way of thinking if you don't have to move them too far.

 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/29/22 2:50 p.m.
Duke said:
Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

My understanding is Biblical scholars recognize Jesus as not being born on Dec 25, but celebrate that date so as to align with other religious celebrations to avoid persecution.

Another interpretation is that the early Christian church chose that date in order to co-opt and re-brand existing festival days as their own.  It's easier to persuade people to your way of thinking if you don't have to move them too far.

 

The didn't even bother changing the name of the Feast of Easter/Esther/Eostre/Ostara.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa PowerDork
3/29/22 3:04 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

A huge number of cultures around the world have legends of dragons, too. These legends spawned independently of each other. Same thing with vampirism.

One thing universal to humankind is the fear/revulsion to the Uncanny Valley.  A common take on that is that something that looked like us used to prey upon us.

Easy answer is species that looked like us, Neanderthal, or Denisovans, but that doesn't lead to good stories that creep us out. 

Similarly, pale skin, pointy teeth, and all black eyes show up in pretty much all myths.  Possible that's just dead bodies, but again that doesn't lead to good stories. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
3/29/22 3:04 p.m.

I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread."  laugh

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
3/29/22 3:07 p.m.

In reply to 1988RedT2 :

I just want to play on my pan pipes.
I just want to drink me some wine.
As soon as you're born you start dying,
So you might as well have a good time.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
3/29/22 3:20 p.m.
1988RedT2 said:

I'd like to propose that we rename this thread "The Lost Sheep Thread."  laugh

I have something that can take care of that.

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