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oldsaw
oldsaw SuperDork
3/11/11 8:15 a.m.
mad_machine wrote:
Ignorant wrote: Blaming GM's downfall entirely on the unions is false. Any company can bear any burden if they have product that supports the high profit required. I believe a bit of this backlash against public unions is powered by our relative jealously of their benefits. A recent news article I read said something about their pay being much less than private workers, but their benefits are off the charts. I myself am very jealous of the benefits of their benefits. The recent birth of my child will probably cost me $6k out of pocket(no complications, normal birth) and I work for a fortune 50 company. Recently, it seems as if, We're all on some gigantic witch hunt to find out why we're in this big economic mess. As with all witch hunts, It seems that the main purpose is to blame someone else for problems in which we have all played our part.

DINGDINGDINGDING! We have a winnar!

I said this before when the economic meltdown occured and was NOT a popular person for it.

ALL of us led to this problem..

Don't hurt yourselves when patting your own backs, guys.

But, yes, we all have blame to share. Some because they made incredibly irresponsible financial choices, some because they didn't pay attention to a government that made "easy money" a way of life, and some because they didn't step-up, vote and start hold people/politicians accountable. That was then, this is now.

The financial meltdown made the private sector suck it up, take a huge hit and make painful adjustments to a new financial paradigm. The public sector has made some concessions, (but nothing like the private side) and are throwing a tantrum because their employers (the taxpayers) want more control over how funding is allocated.

Benefit-envy may motivate some, but the incestuous (arguably corrupt) relationship between politicians and public-sector unions has affected many more. The thugs and anarchists are not doing themselves any PR favors either. And politicans making a cowardly run to the border - wow, just, wow.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
3/11/11 8:57 a.m.
bastomatic wrote: I'm sick of the see-saw we've been on lately in politics. It seems as though the idea is to get into power, overreach as much as possible to push your own platform and screw over the other side, and then to get demolished in the next election cycle and have the other party do the same to you. Some wag on the news was arguing that Dems and Repubs should never work together. This Wisconsin vs Union thing is out of control. That both sides resorted to such brash tactics speaks to their inability to even think about compromise. I'm sure each side feels like they're the ones who have been levelheaded in this situation, when it's clear that neither side has. I'm hoping our new Michigan governor will be a bit different - he seems to be arguing for a "pain for everyone" approach in the budget, which while difficult politically, should really be the reality short-term in our state if we want to get anywhere.

Meh. It beats the hell out of the "I'm gonna fix this, I'm gonna fix that" promises that never even get off the ground. I hate thee Obama. I think he's destroying liberty in this country faster and more efficiently than Bush did, but I'll certainly credit the guy with doing exactly what the berkeley he said he was going to.

fast_eddie_72
fast_eddie_72 HalfDork
3/11/11 9:14 a.m.

I'm not sure. Not all the time, but every now and then an Boston Cream pie is good. Lemon meringue too. What's you're favorite cream style pie?

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 10:50 a.m.
oldsaw wrote: The thugs and anarchists are not doing themselves any PR favors either.

Thugs and Anarchists.. Perfect description of the tea party people.

Thanks for that.

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 10:50 a.m.
poopshovel wrote: I think he's destroying liberty in this country faster and more efficiently than Bush did, but I'll certainly credit the guy with doing exactly what the berkeley he said he was going to.

How?

oldsaw
oldsaw SuperDork
3/11/11 11:51 a.m.
Ignorant wrote:
oldsaw wrote: The thugs and anarchists are not doing themselves any PR favors either.
Thugs and Anarchists.. Perfect description of the tea party people. Thanks for that.

Did you just change a diaper, Ig?

Or are you reverting to your old ways?

Read this for an example of Wisconsin-inspired thuggery and anarchy: http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
3/11/11 12:01 p.m.
Ignorant wrote:
oldsaw wrote: The thugs and anarchists are not doing themselves any PR favors either.
Thugs and Anarchists.. Perfect description of some of the teabaggers and the union goons. Thanks for that.

Fixed that for you.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
3/11/11 12:01 p.m.
Ignorant wrote:
poopshovel wrote: I think he's destroying liberty in this country faster and more efficiently than Bush did, but I'll certainly credit the guy with doing exactly what the berkeley he said he was going to.

How?

Que?

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 12:29 p.m.
poopshovel wrote:
Ignorant wrote:
poopshovel wrote: I think he's destroying liberty in this country faster and more efficiently than Bush did, but I'll certainly credit the guy with doing exactly what the berkeley he said he was going to.

How?

Que?

How is he destroying "liberty" faster than bush.. Not possible, until he finds a way to put us on double secret suspension of habeas corpus...

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 12:30 p.m.
poopshovel wrote:
Ignorant wrote:
oldsaw wrote: The thugs and anarchists are not doing themselves any PR favors either.
Thugs and Anarchists.. Perfect description of some of the teabaggers and the union goons. Thanks for that.

Fixed that for you.

alright I'll go with that.

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 12:33 p.m.
oldsaw wrote: Read this for an example of Wisconsin-inspired thuggery and anarchy: http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html

how many politicians recieved threats from the tea baggers this last go around.... remeber the shots fired at offices..

both sides are stupid.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
3/11/11 12:51 p.m.
Ignorant wrote:
oldsaw wrote: how many politicians recieved threats from the tea baggers this last go around....

Um... none?

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
3/11/11 12:55 p.m.
Ignorant wrote:
poopshovel wrote:
Ignorant wrote: How is he destroying "liberty" faster than bush.. Not possible, until he finds a way to put us on double secret suspension of habeas corpus...

.

We've discussed that at length before... leftists destroy freedom while pretending to champion it and be non-judgemental while the GOP tends to tick off people by being judgemental, but are very ineffective at actually infringing upon freedoms.

Except for the religious right (who are no better but less effective than the big government left) the majority those on the right simply want to be left alone.

We have lost huge amounts of freedoms in this country over the last few decades... nearly all of it from people like you

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 1:07 p.m.
wcelliot wrote:
Ignorant wrote:
oldsaw wrote: how many politicians recieved threats from the tea baggers this last go around....

Um... none?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/25/rep-cantors-richmond-campaign-office-shot-overnight/

yawn.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
3/11/11 1:08 p.m.
wcelliot wrote:
Ignorant wrote:
poopshovel wrote:
Ignorant wrote: How is he destroying "liberty" faster than bush.. Not possible, until he finds a way to put us on double secret suspension of habeas corpus...

.

We've discussed that at length before... leftists destroy freedom while pretending to champion it and be non-judgemental while the GOP tends to tick off people by being judgemental, but are very ineffective at actually infringing upon freedoms.

Except for the religious right (who are no better but less effective than the big government left) the majority those on the right simply want to be left alone.

We have lost huge amounts of freedoms in this country over the last few decades... nearly all of it from people like you

Right, the GOP sourced Patriot Act had no real impact on freedoms and rights.... none at all. It's ALL the loony left...

Keep denying, it will keep that headache away.

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 1:10 p.m.
wcelliot wrote: .. nearly all of it from people like you

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

ha ha ha ha ha..

Man you're funny. go back to salivating over the new atlas shrugged move.

but 1st please lets go back and interpret the federalist papers some more.... then we can talk again.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
3/11/11 1:13 p.m.

And the Fox news article in tied to the Tea Party exactly how?

The Patriot Act has an interesting history (for anyone who has bothered to study it) but if you look at the actual impact compared to the rights taken away by anit-captalist anti-freedom folks like you two, it was little more than a blip.

I'm not a fan of it BTW, but it's certainly been far less troublesome than all of the freedoms we're losing daily...

oldsaw
oldsaw SuperDork
3/11/11 1:19 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: Right, the GOP sourced Patriot Act had no real impact on freedoms and rights.... none at all. It's ALL the loony left... Keep denying, it will keep that headache away.

It takes two to tango............

The Patriot Act is a great example for governmental excess just begging for abuse. It's great that the current administration has rescinded it, just like it has with Gitmo.

As far as the erosion of other rights, this guy has his own perspective: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51053.html

ymmv........

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
3/11/11 1:20 p.m.
novaderrik wrote: they were hired by the state because they applied. they took the job because they agreed to the terms of employment and compensation. if the compensation changes, they can either stay or leave and find a different job. mo one is entitled to a job or to a certain compensation package just because they have it. maybe the unemployed people that are looking for jobs would be willing to do the work. remember- this isn't about cops or firemen. this is about all the other workers that don't have lives in their hands every day. free market ftw..

So if your job compensation changes, your only recorse is to quit? Seriously? The right of compensation chages lies totally with your employer, so if that they scew the pooch and loose a bunch of money, none of which is due to you- your compensation, and your job, can be cut???

Really? That's what you call free market? Are we in the early 1900's or something?

Workers have rights for reasons, most of them have to do with poor management- working conditions, minimum wages, hours, etc- every single labor law can be sourced to management issues. So instead of fixing the management, lets just change the compensation.

Unions make it easy to management to negotiate ONCE.

I find is just stunning how many time people assume that you can just go an get another job if you don't like it. Can we stop with that assumption? Can YOU go an get another job in your field- so you can quit today? I doubt it.

BTW, if you choose to privatize the public works, remember, you may lower the overhead from 6% to 4%, but you then get the honor of paying profits. Which will go UP once options go down. BTDT- note how many times your costs go UP and choices go DOWN with consoldation- same thing.

Blaming unions is just another way that the people who passed the laws have no idea how to be a good negotiator. AKA- they have no idea how to run the state. Actually run- schools, roads, police, fire, parks, etc.

I still find it amusing that we keep cutting taxes, and assume that the services will be able to continue with no changes. Then when the service does change, the claim is that "it shows how inneffective government is" as opposed to -duh, it costs money to plow snow (or chase robbers, or manage fish, or fix potholes, or keep an eye on food sources... or, or, or....).

Raise taxes back to 60's levels. We were doing pretty well as a country back then.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
3/11/11 1:22 p.m.
Ignorant wrote: Man you're funny. go back to salivating over the new atlas shrugged move. but 1st please lets go back and interpret the federalist papers some more.... then we can talk again.

I have no more desire to talk to someone like you than I do Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, or any other avowed enemy of the US.

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
3/11/11 1:23 p.m.
JohnGalt wrote: What do you have against the Proposition system? Works fine in Georgia.

Lots of things wrong with it as it's written into the CA constitution. It lets completely uninformed people vote on major issues based primarily on emotion and advertising and is virtually impossible for the legislature to overturn if it's stupid.

Prop 13, the property tax cap, is probably the clearest example. This is a huge cause of the pension issues you mentioned, among numerous other problems.

The pension costs in question are borne primarily by local governments. One of the best sources of revenue on the local level are (or were) property taxes. They are a stable, predictable, and reliable revenue. Prop 13 took those mostly off the table and forced local governments to rely much more heavily on sales tax for revenue, which is highly volatile. Income taxes don't go to local gov.

wcelliot
wcelliot HalfDork
3/11/11 1:24 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
novaderrik wrote: they were hired by the state because they applied. they took the job because they agreed to the terms of employment and compensation. if the compensation changes, they can either stay or leave and find a different job. mo one is entitled to a job or to a certain compensation package just because they have it. maybe the unemployed people that are looking for jobs would be willing to do the work. remember- this isn't about cops or firemen. this is about all the other workers that don't have lives in their hands every day. free market ftw..

So if your job compensation changes, your only recorse is to quit? Seriously? The right of compensation chages lies totally with your employer, so if that they scew the pooch and loose a bunch of money, none of which is due to you- your compensation, and your job, can be cut???

Really? That's what you call free market? Are we in the early 1900's or something?

Workers have rights for reasons, most of them have to do with poor management- working conditions, minimum wages, hours, etc- every single labor law can be sourced to management issues. So instead of fixing the management, lets just change the compensation.

You are confusing commercial unions (which are a vital part of the free market system) with public unions which have no defendable role.

z31maniac
z31maniac SuperDork
3/11/11 1:30 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: So if your job compensation changes, your only recorse is to quit? Seriously? The right of compensation chages lies totally with your employer, so if that they scew the pooch and loose a bunch of money, none of which is due to you- your compensation, and your job, can be cut???

That's how it happens in every single industry BUT government.

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 1:30 p.m.
wcelliot wrote:
Ignorant wrote: Man you're funny. go back to salivating over the new atlas shrugged move. but 1st please lets go back and interpret the federalist papers some more.... then we can talk again.

I have no more desire to talk to someone like you than I do Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, or any other avowed enemy of the US.

This is the best thing ever said to me on the internets...

I thank you sir.

Ignorant
Ignorant SuperDork
3/11/11 1:36 p.m.
wcelliot wrote: anit-captalist anti-freedom folks like you two

I am... Completely.

Ohh btw.. I'll bet you have more of my products in your house and have use more products I have produced that I have touched of yours..

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