In reply to z31maniac:
The problem is the numbers don't make sense.
Lets just say that the average servers serves and average of 5 tables and hour with an average bill of $30 per table. Out of that $150/hr in Gross sales the restaurant has to cover $2.13 in server only labor. Lets say the Hostess and busboy share and they actually have to cover $6.39. That's 4.26% of GROSS sales that goes toward "service" labor or 142.11 going to the restaurant. Now if all 3 people need to average $12/hr the restaurant would need to make 142.11+36= 178.11 to gross the same amount. This would represent an increase of 18.74% so the average table for our theoretical restaurant would go up by $5.62. The increase gets less the more expensive you assume the average ticket to be, or the more tables you allow each server to serve. The hostess seats the whole restaurant and there are probably only 2 busboys for the whole store so my numbers are generous at best. I don't buy that including the labor in the meal would cause an increase that exceeds the 20% we are already expected to tip. How would it? It's insane to think that it would. We are already PAYING for the servers we are just doing under the guise of TIPS. If you fold it into the restaurant expenses and expect it to increase by any more than 20% it just makes no sense. The only way I can see it going up is if they decided to provied Health/Vacation benifits and included the server labor in their gross margin. Then I could see a larger change but that would be a bigger difference than just including the tips in the bill.
nocones wrote:
In reply to z31maniac:
The problem is the numbers don't make sense.
Lets just say that the average servers serves and average of 5 tables and hour with an average bill of $30 per table. Out of that $150/hr in Gross sales the restaurant has to cover $2.13 in server only labor. Lets say the Hostess and busboy share and they actually have to cover $6.39. That's 4.26% of GROSS sales that goes toward "service" labor or 142.11 going to the restaurant. Now if all 3 people need to average $12/hr the restaurant would need to make 142.11+36= 178.11 to gross the same amount. This would represent an increase of 18.74% so the average table for our theoretical restaurant would go up by $5.62. The increase gets less the more expensive you assume the average ticket to be, or the more tables you allow each server to serve. The hostess seats the whole restaurant and there are probably only 2 busboys for the whole store so my numbers are generous at best. I don't buy that including the labor in the meal would cause an increase that exceeds the 20% we are already expected to tip. How would it? It's insane to think that it would. We are already PAYING for the servers we are just doing under the guise of TIPS. If you fold it into the restaurant expenses and expect it to increase by any more than 20% it just makes no sense. The only way I can see it going up is if they decided to provied Health/Vacation benifits and included the server labor in their gross margin. Then I could see a larger change but that would be a bigger difference than just including the tips in the bill.
YEah... Because every small restaurant owner owns a house in the Hampton's.... Stolen from the hard work of the fry cook...
Edit..
Oh wait.. It has already been said.. probably better..
poopshovel wrote: said:
Lots of "I've never had to wait/bus tables or deliver pizzas, but I know lots about it" and "The guy that owns the restaurants must get free money and cars and do nothing all day, because the restaurant business is really easy and has huge profit margins" from people who've never seen an 80 hour work week. Awesome.
ronholm wrote:
YEah... Because every small restaurant owner owns a house in the Hampton's.... Stolen from the hard work of the fry cook...
Edit..
Oh wait.. It has already been said.. probably better..
poopshovel wrote: said:
Lots of "I've never had to wait/bus tables or deliver pizzas, but I know lots about it" and "The guy that owns the restaurants must get free money and cars and do nothing all day, because the restaurant business is really easy and has huge profit margins" from people who've never seen an 80 hour work week. Awesome.
Wait what? I'm making no conjectures about the profit the restaurant makes nor am I saying that they make a large or small amount of it. I'm simply saying that given the current 2.13 labor and my hypothetical 5/$30/hr sales the restaurant has to pay out of the remaining 142.11 their Overhead, insurance, cook staff, and numerous other things including whatever profit margin they make. I then said OK we will fix that amount whatever it may be they are making some kind of profit out of their current sales we will hold that value constant and increase the waitstaff labor only and see what impact it has on gross sales. When you do that the 52% numbers claimed make no sense especially when you consider we are already paying the restaurant and the waitstaff when we pay for the bill + tips today which represents about a 20% increase in the cost of the bill. Why would this 20% become 52%? I haven't worked in the restaurant industry so if you have, and can provide math that makes more sense than what I have proposed please work through it. I am 100% ok with if you can PROVE that including waitstaff labor will result in a large increase in food costs than I'm cool with my simple analysis being wrong.
Believe the guys who don't run a restaurant and thier made up numbers on the Internet.
Or
The guy responsible for running a restaurant that does $50,000 per WEEK in sales.
And I'll respectfully leave this thread at.
Nocones, the numbers given for the increase don't take tips into consideration, that's all.
I'm probably wrong because i don't run a restaurant, though. 
z31maniac wrote:
Believe the guys who don't run a restaurant and thier made up numbers on the Internet.
Or
The guy responsible for running a restaurant that does $50,000 per WEEK in sales.
And I'll respectfully leave this thread at.
Or you could show how you arrive at those numbers. How does it make sense to you that the 20% tip you pay today somehow would represent a 50% increase in food cost if rolled in. All I ask is show the numbers in a way a simpleton like me can understand rather than saying because my genius restaurant buddy says so. I'm just fine with being wrong about this. I welcome learning more about things and expanding my understanding of things. So please show me how my math is wrong.
z31maniac wrote:
Believe the guys who don't run a restaurant and thier made up numbers on the Internet.
You mean, like you. All I have is second hand information that doesn't seem to add up on the face of it from a cited source who admitedly is an "insider" with a horse in the race.
I'm in the same boat as nocones on this. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the "my buddy says so and that makes it so" isn't holding water for me.
z31maniac wrote:
Believe the guys who don't run a restaurant and thier made up numbers on the Internet.
Or
The guy responsible for running a restaurant that does $50,000 per WEEK in sales.
And I'll respectfully leave this thread at.
Sounds like the job I did! I was sent to repair stores with problems that might require a change in management.
Me and my Bulldog crew!
Been in stores that ran $4000 a week to $85000 a week.
But, I am not asking you to believe me...I'm asking you to check the numbers yourself because they don't add up.
His percentage figures are to maintain the payroll percentage.
What is not shown is that with no changes in volume, staffing, overhead or inventory costs will show a DROP in percentages.
Example:
$100 sales with 5 catagories of 20% one of which is labor.
$20 for labor...right?
50% increase in prices to have $150 in sales.
20% labor is now $30.
The other cost have not gone up so we have $80 (4X$20) plus the new $30 labor costs. Or 13.333% for these other 4 categories. 54% plus 20%=72%
Looks like $110 in costs with a spare $40 (about 28%)running around that your expert is applying to his labor figures.
He is off by a factor of 5!!
Always suspect arguments that use percentages without showing the actual numbers.
I saw an article that told that gun usage in home crimes had doubled by percentage.
This was in the middle of the "Castle law" debates about a homeowner defending their home.
Real numbers showed that actual home crimes had dropped from 48 to 18 and they were now including the homeowners gun usage in the figure.
Actual number of criminals using guns was lower, but when plugged into the number of crimes showed a lower percentage and required that the new homeowners figures to support the claim of "doubling" of gun use.
Don't even get me started on home ownership or unemployment "percentages" 2 of the biggest smokescreens out there.
Bruce
I once lost an argument with an accountant that hired me to run one of his franchises. His point was that store A had a 10% profit while my store only showed 7%.
Store A had began the month with $6500/wk in sales and mine was at $7000.
End of month had Store A at $5000 in sales while mine was $10500.
Accountant refused to see that I was putting an increasing amount of money in the bank while Store A was headed for disaster.
Some people will not unwrap their minds from percentages in order to see the real numbers.
Bruce
z31maniac wrote:
Disagree if you like, doesn't bother me. He ran the numbers for his store, what reason would he have to lie to an internet discussion?
He has every reason to lie to you, and nothing to gain from telling you the truth for one thing.
I operate on the assumption that 95% of people in this world are dirtbags, and I look real hard to find the ones that aren't. As others have said, the numbers don't add up.
I don't have the patience to figure out all the inner financial workings of restaurants. I just tip if I eat at one because that is how the servers get paid.
If you want everything included in the price of your food with no tip, there are plenty of restaurants where that is available. You just have to refill your own cup. We all have our crosses to bear in life.
"SEVEN. Seven is the number of pages it takes to turn a rational discussion into monkeys throwing feces."
Says I, from my big glass house in the Hamptons.
In reply to poopshovel:
lol - Yeah, that sounds about right. And coming from a rock throwing glass houser who calls himself poopshovel, that's kind of a back handed compliment, I think!
JG Pasterjak wrote:
I tip, and usually tip well. If I'm in doubt as to whether someone deserves a tip (like a cable installer or a tree guy), I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and try to tip them anyway. Take out? Tip.
Come to my table with an attitude and sass me through my dinner? Yeah, you'll probably get a pretty good tip, too. You were probably in a lousy mood because someone from earlier in this thread was your last table. Maybe my generosity will put you in a better mood and the next guy will get better service, and the world will be an overall happier place.
I don't want to live in a world where we're all trying to stick it to each other so hard that everyone's miserable. If it costs me an extra buck or two a couple times a week to put a smile on someone's face, I consider that a worthwhile investment.
jg
Many apologies for skipping the five pages in between. I have a cold, and I didn't think the environment would help with recuperation.
I just wanted to observe once again that JG rocks.
I've had a lot of jobs that technically paid something besides tips, but not really usefully. As a result, I've sworn not to lose track of what it was like to serve coffee/beer/pizza/etc, and tip accordingly.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:
In reply to poopshovel:
lol - Yeah, that sounds about right. And coming from a rock throwing glass houser who calls himself poopshovel, that's kind of a back handed compliment, I think!
Just an observation. Not claiming I haven't flung more than my fair share of monkeypoo.
