Life is short. Are you reconciled with your Maker?

Toyman! said:

In reply to Duke :

It absolutely is good enough. 

That does not change the sadness that he may well be missing from the life ever after part of my beliefs. No arrogance or condescension, just sadness. 

Except that it is condescending, even if subconsciously.  There are two factors in play here:

1) The poster is sad because his friend died.  No problem there.  He has my sympathy for the death of his friend.

2) The poster is sad because his friend died in a state of non-grace with the terms of THE POSTER's religion, and so by extension, was therefore not living in a way favored by the poster.

That is why I say it is condescending and/or arrogant.  Why is it even the poster's business?  There was no evidence presented that his friend died in spiritual agony, full of remorse and regrets about never learning The Truth or hearing The Good News or Finding God or however you care to phrase it.  His friend was in all probability perfectly at peace with his own version of spirituality (or non-spirituality) by which he chose to live his life.

So effectively by saying he is sad that his friend died an atheist, what he's really saying is that he is sad that his friend wasn't living up to his standards, so he won't get to share the glory.  When, in fact, his friend didn't believe there was any glory, and was perfectly OK with that.

That's what I, as an atheist, have a problem with.  It's probably not as clear as it could be, but I'm trying to be polite.

In reply to BlueInGreen - Jon :

Pascal's wager falls apart fast when you factor in that there's more than one religion claiming to know *the* way into the afterlife.

If an all knowing, all powerful deity judges me after I die, I would hope it would be for the way I've lived my life, not for picking the right name to make a vow to. I will do my best to do the right things because that is what is right to do whether or not that is the ticket to paradise. And if I look St. Peter in the eye and he tells me that putting my best faith effort into doing the right thing didn't matter... I don't want to be in that club.

SV reX said:

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

And there, in a nutshell, is the origin of that condescension and arrogance.

I'm on a plane to an island to relax. I'm out of this one now, don't need the stress of the double standards based on usernames. See ya in April. 

SV reX said:

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

This is something most Christians have wrestled deeply with, and ALL non-Christians are offended by.  Christians (like me) have been berkeleying it up for over 2000 years.

It doesn't actually say "Go and preach", it says "Go and make disciples".  That's hard to figure out how to do it.

Christians aren't born as Christians.  We come to a moment of decision that is difficult.  We are all brought to that moment by "being discipled", and we then have to figure out how to implement it in our own lives and try to disciple others.  Every single one of us messes it up.  We are not perfect, just forgiven.

I completely understand and respect how proselytizing bothers and offends people.  I try my hardest to do it in less offensive ways, and find that I am often so weak and diluted that the reality is that I am not making disciples.  I'm not even exhibiting my faith.  If there was a court trial there wouldn't be enough evidence to convict me of being a Christian.

Sharing belief is part of the calling to Christianity.  Its not a desire to offend or bludgeon people.  It's an honest sojourn and search for balance with our faith and with the world.  Most of us mess it up badly.

Try to understand that Christians are struggling with it too.  And failure to "make disciples" (whatever that means) is a failure of faith.  It feels like a failure to try to fulfill the Great Commission.

I try to "Preach the Gospel at all times, and only use words when necessary". I usually fall short.

Thank you for sharing this, it's genuinely insightful. I think many religions have some form of this, from my admittedly limited knowledge. And if you have such conviction, that's honestly better to me than someone claiming to be Christian and not actually... being much of one.

Here's my hangup, which I'm sharing to again get insight and drive discussion, not because this is all about me. When I first came out, one (disappointingly common) response from some family friends was "oh I'll pray for you" given the notion of homosexuality being a sin. Simply being born a certain way really doesn't vibe with the whole notion of "sin" to me, if I even believed it in the first place. I found the comments hurtful and had no interest in remaining friends with those people. Still don't. 

Christianity has been used to hurt the queer community and drive hatred for a very, very long time. So have many other religions. So beyond my simple "brain doesn't get it" comment, which holds 1,000% true, I don't know if there will ever be enough progression and apology and whatever to bring me around. And that's why I struggle with people who want to be so devout (which is honestly fantastic) because I truly do not want to be "converted" in any way. These more open discussions are much more my speed, though, and I'm really glad it's been mostly civil.

In reply to Duke :

I was the one that posted about being sad.  You just read a bunch of stuff into it that is not there.  Move on.  

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

Never mind that if God does not make mistakes, then you are as God intended you to be.

In reply to SV reX :

Yes. It is a difficult subject and has resulted in no small amount of bloodshed over the millennia, and Christians were not the first.

All I can really offer is Humanity has succeeded because of its diversity.  Diversity that needs to be cherished and encouraged, not feared.  

I want to live my life trying to be the person that Fred Rogers knew I could be. I mean that genuinely.

SV reX said:

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission

Part of the problem with the Great Comission is that other religions have one, too, and the general consensus is that they can't all be correct. 

I'll pose this: Faith is a kind of belief.  Beliefs generally aren't universal. Religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are kind of like a hootus. Most people don't care what you have, and don't care to. So, if you whip it out and start waving it around, you're probably going to make somebody mad.

Beyond that, one of the *best* ways to get power as a clerical group is to get everybody believing the same thing. Then you can influence entire societies with the threat of divine otherworldly punishment realms. Religions also great for codifying morals in early societies, and where the morals are similar, different religions can co-exist and intermingle without too much friction. When two deeply held beliefs which are viewed as fact meet, conflict is almost inevitable, because both the power structures and the deeply held, foundational precepts that people hold are challenged. There are people who are much more well versed in these things than I am, and entire fields of academic study devoted to them, so I won't go too far down that path. 

 

In reply to Duke :

I'm trying to not be condescending but I don't know any other way to state it. It's just that I love you guys and the Eternity Edition of GRM is going to suck if all of us aren't there. 

If that sounds condescending to you, I'm sorry. 

With that, I've pretty much let my 2 cents be known. 

spitfirebill said:

In reply to Duke :

I was the one that posted about being sad.  You just read a bunch of stuff into it that is not there.  Move on.  

spitfirebill also said:
 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

So... we weren't supposed to connect those dots?

Then I suppose I'm duty-bound to say "my mistake."

Duke said:

SV reX said:

The problem is that one of the most powerful tenets of Christianity is the Great Commission:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

And there, in a nutshell, is the origin of that condescension and arrogance.

 

You're right. It's condescending and arrogant.   IF it's not true. 
 

If it is true, then it is deeply caring, even to the point of self sacrifice.  Because honestly, it's awful to have to share with some people.

Religion is about the rituals and stuff people do on Sundays.  Or Saturdays.  Or dancing around totem poles.  Or pushing whatever other belief they have.

But if it's about relationship, then sharing joy about a benevolent all-loving God is kinda important.

I'm a Christian, but I'm not a religious man.

In reply to Brake_L8 (Forum Supporter) :

I'm really sorry you've been treated like that.

I don't have many explanations for why people behave badly.  My daughter is gay, and so is my brother.  One of the hardest things the Christian gay community ever has to deal with is Christians.  Because very few have any idea how to handle issues with gay people in their community, and queer people have to decide if they want to leave a very strong supportive community (the gay community) and associate with a community that has been generally critical (the Christian community- because they don't understand). 
 

That totally sucks. 
 

I will say this... God doesn't weigh one sin greater than another, and we have ALL sinned.  Honestly, the issue of whether homosexuality is a sin or not is a bit of a mute point to me. I know that I am a sinner, and I know that I have sexual sin.  
 

My job is seeking grace and forgiveness.  And sharing my experience.  I'm not the judge, and I am not the accuser- those are both someone else's job.  
 

Thank you for your open consideration in spite of the hurts you've been exposed to.

In reply to SV reX :

Until this alleged supreme being comes down and makes itself known to all, unequivocally, with multiple camera angles, instrument readings, and clear repeatability, there is no such thing as TRUE.

The best you're going to get is a totally subjective 'Some people agree...' or maybe, to torture the definition a bit, 'This is true for some people...'.

So until that undeniable, universal reveal happens, anyone who believes they have the inside scoop and feels compelled to share it with  / impose it on anyone else will be doing so from a basis of self-proclaimed superiority.

In reply to Duke :

Unfortunately, that's not true. 
 

Until that happens, there is no such thing as indisputably proven fact.  There is still truth.

If there are solar systems beyond those we know of, they exist. It doesn't matter if we have discovered them or not.

Duke said:

spitfirebill said:

In reply to Duke :

I was the one that posted about being sad.  You just read a bunch of stuff into it that is not there.  Move on.  

spitfirebill also said:
 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

So... we weren't supposed to connect those dots?

Then I suppose I'm duty-bound to say "my mistake."

Actually, the first thing I thought of was that I had just him him a part he needed for the GT-6 project he was working and had no idea that he was 1 week away from dying.  Then I was sad because he was never going to finish that project, never going to see his daughter graduate college and never going to attend any more events at which so many people enjoyed his company.  I never met him face to face, but had a few communications with him through email and DM.  Then I was sorry because if he was still an atheist at his death, then he is done.  I have never tried to convert or save him or anybody else.  
Much like SVrex said I am a Christian, but not a religious man.  If that doesn't make sense to anyone don't bother to tell me.  

SV reX said:

In reply to Duke :

Until that happens, there is no such thing as indisputably proven fact.  There is still truth.

If there are solar systems beyond those we know of, they exist. It doesn't matter if we have discovered them or not.

You are, of course, technically correct.  But still wrong.

1)  In your first sense, there is Truth beyond the perception currently available to human senses.  But your perception of that Truth has no physical evidence to back it up - it is entirely based on your belief in whatever it is you base your faith upon.  My perception of that Truth has a physical, observable by all, and repeatable basis, completely independent of whether I personally believe the interpretation of it or not.  You are correct, it is currently limited and incomplete.  But it is based on empirical information of the highest quality available.  Until the Big Reveal, there is no empirical evidence at all of any supernatural or supreme being.  Whether that be Sun God or Jehovah or the Romans' Unknown God or any other.

2)  I do not understand your point here.  Of course those undiscovered solar systems exist independent of the observer.  But I am not basing my behaviour in the Here and Now on their existence.  I am not influenced, let alone directed, by the assumption that they do or do not exist in any particular way, nor am I attributing any thoughts / feelings / wishes / commands to them.  That is a difference that cannot be ignored with any validity.

These are the arguments that have popped up numerous times before. Go in the same circles. Then get these threads locked.

spitfirebill said:

Duke said:

spitfirebill said:

In reply to Duke :

I was the one that posted about being sad.  You just read a bunch of stuff into it that is not there.  Move on.  

spitfirebill also said:
 

I'm pretty sure I know who you are talking about and the first thing I thought of when he passed was that he was an atheist.  It made me very sad.  

So... we weren't supposed to connect those dots?

Then I suppose I'm duty-bound to say "my mistake."

Actually, the first thing I thought of was [...].  Then I was sorry because if he was still an atheist at his death, then he is done.

Which is exactly what prompted my original post on this part of the topic.

In reply to Duke :

Your "big reveal" has happened. It's observable, and repeatable. 
 

But you are free to interpret the data differently. 

You two,

Please stop.

In reply to Beer Baron :

That's fair. I shouldn't have said that.