Need Help With A (Life) Plan - Finances, Housing, Career Outlook, Time Off, Kid Raising

I had originally written a book but decided to rehash this a bit differently. 

I recently posted about a job that I was applying for that I would have really liked had it offered more or same money, more or same vacation, and allowed me a few months to move and start. As expected, I did not get an offer. 

It made me think of my future, and how I might get to where I want to be. 

With a baby, a wife anxious to spend time with her child, and a big family back on the east coast, I struggle with "outlook". It's easy to ignore the family when I'm enjoying the wide open spaces or beautiful weather of the southwest, but its much harder when my child's grandparents and great grandparents are missing her face. 

I'm starting to come to this realization that the longer I stay with my current employer (who's awesome by the way), the less likely I am to find another employer who will match my current situation. I will almost undoubtedly have to start over or step backwards, especially in areas with lower cost of living. 

My wife and I are both working, and getting away with a relatively good deal in terms of daycare. We make good money, have virtually no debt aside from the house, and are quickly saving more than half our income. In another year or so of work, we could easily save up enough to buy a home all-cash in areas of the east coast that interest us (Asheville outskirts, Chattanooga, Pittsburgh). Our current home satisfies us, but it wont for long. We just don't dig our neighborhood, and can't forsee our child ever playing with other kids on the street, because the street is a deathwish. We'd like to move elsewhere in town, for how long? We've only been at our current place for a 1.5 years, and aren't sure how long we'll stay in our current region due to aforementioned missing of family. 

I'm looking for stories and advice on career progression when your current employer is awesome, and a better home/community life when you're not sure how long you'll stay. 

My situation was a little different because my previous employer wasn't super awesome (but also not super bad either) and we made a move that involved a small cut in pay, due to the increased cost of living, for somewhere with better work/life balance and also closer to family.  I think if family is important to you, and you make decisions knowing that is why, there's nothing wrong with making a move in that direction.  It's not all about the money - but not everyone feels that way!

Send me a PM if you want to meet up and chat!

I have heard tales from the elders of this career pro-gre-shun, some say it is a myth, have you seen it?

I was in a similar situation four years ago:  liked my job, house, have a wife/kid, and wanted to live somewhere else.  One difference is that I was moving away from family.

I found a job in the area I wanted to be, took a pay cut, and made the move.  When we got here my wife found a job that she liked more, and paid better, than what she had previously.  It made up for my pay cut. 

About 6 months after I left my former employer had a big layoff.  People who weren't cut started leaving in droves at the first opportunity they had.  I was shocked to hear it, and I would never have seen it coming. 

In the end my wife and I are happy with our move.  We have two kids now, so we sometimes miss having family near.  I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Different situation, girlfriend is finishing school while working full-time. I moved to OKC from Tulsa for a job. I could have commuted 3 days per week but nearly 675 miles in 3 days just for commuting, tolls/time/wear and tear on the car, I decided to move.

Girlfriend sold her house in August of last year, moved here, I bought a house in September since the area of town I wanted to live in for a 2bed apartment would have been hundreds more than a mortgage. I regret buying the house because of the lack of mobility, but hoping I can break even in a few years since the neighborhood is nice to begin with and more and more homes are being fixed up and flipped. 

Neither of us like OKC (but I do love my job). It's dirty, windy, spread out. We figure if we are going to be away from friends and family (no kids, likely never will) there is no point in being a city we don't care for. 

So we will be looking to either move back to Tulsa, or somewhere else in a few years. I'd be happy to not buy again unless we knew we were going to stay somewhere permanently. If we didn't have a our BIG pit bull, I'd be happy to go back into a nice downtown apartment like I had in Tulsa and in OKC.

do what's best for you and the wife and the kids.  not what's best for the grandparents.   not what's best for the great-grandparents.   i have nothing else to offer. 

I think there can be too much importance put on career progression. If you're making enough to easily support yourselves, then why do you need more? Live where you want to live so that your family can thrive. Maybe that includes grandparents nearby and maybe it doesn't. Don't uproot your lives chasing a salary bump.

That being said, Im a new parent too. I come from a family that is pretty spread out across the country, but I married into a large, close knit family and it's changed my outlook on family quite a bit. I have to say that it's been a huge blessing having such a strong support network so close (in laws are 5 minutes away). Grandma will be watching our little one when the wife and I return to work, which cuts down on daycare costs significantly and is preferred vs having a stranger taking care of our pride and joy. I'm totally content to stay in my current job and letting our family grow in a single place that they can call home, where they'll get to really know their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc and enjoy the support network that I never had as a kid.

Instead of basing decisions on salary, or distance to grandparents try and base your choices on your family's happiness. Will you be happier in a different neighborhood in your current town, enjoying lots of time off? Or will you be happier moving back home, having family support close by for holidays, cookouts, birthday parties, or built in baby sitters if you and the Mrs need a date night? Which scenario improves your quality of life more? The things that improved your quality of life can definitely change when kids enter the picture. There's no shame in taking stock in your situation and adjusting your sails for the path that provides a higher quality of life for your family. That's the question you need to answer.

Our issue is that our parents have told us they don't want to be full-time babysitters. Yea, the occasional Friday night, sure, but not everyday while we're working. There is also no way we could have easy access to both sets of grandparents and great grandparents. 

Part of moving back east would be cheaper cost of living, and if I could find a job paying somewhat close to what I make now, that would allow my wife not to work, but that's only if I find something similar to what I've got now. With a cool boss. And decent vacation. Despite how that might look for a woman who wants to be a stay-at-home Mom, my wife actually would prefer to stay here in the southwest and work. She loves it that much. 

What she would enjoy the most is having a bunch of young mom friends who all love the outdoors and whom share babysitting so she could potentially work part-time, but maybe also live in a community/neighborhood that is more of the "kids play in the street and moms all know eachother." 

That can happen here or back east, but it would require a move.

if Mama likes the southwest, stay in the southwest.   there's nothing wrong with moving locally.   hell, i'm in my fifth house since 1996, all within about 15 miles of each other.

AngryCorvair said:

if Mama likes the southwest, stay in the southwest.   there's nothing wrong with moving locally.   hell, i'm in my fifth house since 1996, all within about 15 miles of each other.

That's what I was about to say. If she wants to be there, I'd be figuring out how to take care of the current issues. 

I don't know where "back east" is for you, but, it's generally not the land of cheap living unless it's in the southern half, and even then there's plenty of it that doesn't look cheap to my Midwestern eyes.  

You Do You, generally, seems like the right angle to take.  If your life at home is happy, that's way better for your kids and wife and life in general vs. a move to be closer to grand/great-grand parents.  Sucks for them but that's the breaks.  

No advice on career progression.  

In reply to pheller :

I suspect when you look at me you see a strange guy who you can't always understand with opinions different than yours. 

When I look at you I see me 30 years ago. 

Change is gonna happen. You are wise to think about it as a progression, but there is a lot more change coming than you are expecting. 

I'm pretty sure your wife's attitudes about work will change, if she's anything like my wife. That means in 5 years your financial picture will change to a single income family, she will care less about rock climbing and mountain biking. And it means in 15 years she will be very focused on her women friends and family and stability, and you will be much more disengaged from your kids then you want, and working very hard to enable her staying home. Which also means you will spend less time climbing mountains. 

So, if I could tell 30 year old me something, I'd say pursue stability, be rooted in a community, simplify your lifestyle, don't buy the bigger house, and accept that things will change with your wife.  30 year old me would not listen. 

But to your credit, 30 year old me would also not have asked the question in the first place!  

Add to your list of considerations: How are the schools in neighborhoods you would move to if staying local?  How are the schools in neighborhoods you might move to if relocating 'back east'? 

Until I was in my 30's I had never lived in one place for more than 4 years.  My Dad was a minister and then joined the Army so we moved all the time.  Taking employment out of the picture here is what I have learned from the way I grew up.  You are the deciding factor in how involved your family is in the community, you will always find friends and things to do if you look for them so don't get too hung up on the "where" and just be present.

With children it is very nice to have family close for those emergency\short notice situations that always come up and I think having my kids around their Grandparents have been good for both of them.   My In Laws moved from California to Ohio when my FIL started having heath issues.  Where they lived it was over an hour to a good hospital so we convinced them to move east to be closer to their two kids, my wife and her sister.  My wife our oldest son who was then 2 (now 15), my brother and I flew out and helped them pack up and then caravan their three vehicles back to Ohio.  I ended up riding with my FIL most of the way and one of our conversations has stuck in my head.  He mentioned that he did not grow up close to his grandparents and did not think that was very important.  I said that when I was young, before my father finished college, we lived with one set of my great grandparents and my grandparents were right across the road.  I felt that being around them made me a better person, I learned a great deal from them, I have no trouble interacting with older people and they genuinely seemed to enjoy having me around most of the time.  At the time we agreed to disagree but now the way my FIL lights up when he is around the kids tells me that I was right but I am not going to tell him that.

I guess the gist of this book is to say that, yes there are benefits to having family close by but it is also not the end of the world either.  You and your wife can make a great life for your family wherever you are so deciding where you two will be the happiest is, in my opinion, the most important thing.  Set yourself up so that you can spend time with your kids doing things that you love to do and the rest will work its self out.

less junk < more journey

No, it's not for everyone, but definitely makes me think about the priorities in my life. 

Grandparents...

I have 5 kids. Oldest is 31. 

We spent more than 20 years living no where near any grandparents. We wished we could, but we couldn't. 

About 10 years ago my mother moved halfway across the country and bought a house 1 block away from us. 

Honestly, it's been awesome. I wish I had tried harder when we were younger.  I wouldn't trade having my kids live near their grandparents if there was any way at all that I could avoid it. 

Ian F said:

less junk < more journey

No, it's not for everyone, but definitely makes me think about the priorities in my life. 

I lived like that for a while. I deeply regret changing. 

In reply to STM317 :

As a parent of a growing boy. I need an ever increasing salary. The damn kid flies through clothes/shoes and literally eats all our food, and he's only 7. Also, schools nickle and dime your ass apart. Plus childcare, which you cant always depend on elderly grandparents to be able to do. 

When we first had our son we lived a few mins from my mom and a few hours from hers. It was nice to have a sitter on the weekends (my sister or mom) and have that help. But, we still needed daycare which is a small mortgage. Then we moved from Virginia to Southern California, and man! That small mortgage for childcare grew to an actual mortgage like price.We didn't have as easy access to a sitter and no family within 2000 miles in any direction. Honestly we really didn't miss the family and yes the grandparents wanted to see him but it was up to them to visit or work with us on us visiting (when we can). I think being away from family and being able to establish new connections improved our quality of life. We learned how to be open to meeting new people and adjusting to changes in life. Honestly, for our family I think we thrive better being away than near everyone. But, that is our family. 

I just wanted to give the POV of not being near family.

We're certainly not heavy on junk, at least not compared to our peers. In fact, in a lot of ways we get criticized for not having more stuff. Our babies room for example, is empty. Our "junk" is camping equipment, bicycles, tools to build and fix things vs buying them. 

The problem with all of these folks living in RV's is that they have very alternative, flexible jobs. My wife does not want to work for herself. I'm not sure I could successfully. We need "normal" jobs, just ones with good flexibility and vacation. Or we need to live somewhere that normal jobs are bareable because we love where we live (which is kind of our situation currently). 

My parents want to see their grandchildren on a weekend or bi-weekly basis. I think her parents are similar. Not every day, but regularly. With all the extended family being in Pennsylvania, but the great grandparents/great aunts/uncles being in the south (Florida/North Carolina) it seems that North Carolina/Southern Virginia would be a good spot for us. Someplace surrounded by public land.

"Back East" is someplace on the East Coast with Mountains and little snow. And Public Land. We love our public land. 

As far as my wife's future? I'm not entirely sure. She pretty much hates having an infant. Loves our baby, for sure, but I don't think she wants more. Once baby hits school-age, I think my wife will go stir-crazy. It's happened before when she moved to Flagstaff unemployed...basically got bored within a few days of doing nothing. She's not good at occupying herself, and she's an introvert - bad combo. The only thing that keeps her busy is cleaning, and the only reason cleaning takes up any time is because we spend a lot of time outdoors, have an overly large house and too much laundry due to our jobs. I think if she had no laundry and a smaller/simpler house she'd get bored really quick. Especially if kiddo was at school. This is a woman who likes to work, just likes working very specific, humanitarian or culturally interesting jobs - which are unfortunately usually found in progressive cities, not small rural towns. 

In reply to pheller :

Cross Asheville off your list.  I live here and it is the most expensive place to live in the state.  Look at east TN like Knoxville, or the Tricities(Johnson City, Bristol, Kingsport). Everything is much more affordable in East TN, the larger cities hae more jobs. Asheville is almost entirely a service/tourist job city unless you work remotely. East TN is close enough to visit Asheville.  Plus since you like Bikes and 4x4's Knoxville has Windrock which is both an OHV/4x4 park and the main downhill mtb park the area and Knoxville is still close to Asheville.

Property is significantly cheaper in east TN as well

These are tricky situations to figure out. It never really feels like there's one obvious answer. We've chosen to live in Wisconsin because where we are has a good compromise of city life, nature, cost of living, and job opportunities while being only about an hour and a half from our family in Chicago. 

That said, we're not close enough to the family to easily use them for babysitting, and the topic of moving back to Chicago comes up fairly often although I really do not want to do that.  We also have friends in California, Seattle, etc, and the weather and outdoors access is so incredible on the West Coast. It's easy to get a wandering eye come February in Milwaukee. 

Ultimately though, our day-to-day life here is really good and we're close enough to the family that they can see our son pretty frequently. We would give up a lot to move to either Chicago or somewhere out west, and I think at the end of the day anywhere eventually just feels like a place where you go to work, sleep and run errands.  I lived and worked briefly in Hawaii and was surprised by how quickly it felt somewhat mundane to be there. 

As an aside, before we lived here we were in Pittsburgh for 3 years, and it is a pretty cool place. The city itself is a nice place to be, interesting neighborhoods and lots going on. The access to the outdoors is quite good, lots of great hiking and backpacking opportunities, fishing, etc. Definitely a pretty Midwestern temperate climate with a fair amount of cold and snow in winter though if that's not your thing.  But overall,  living there was our inspiration for trying to find a smaller city with some better access to nature than we could get in Chicago but reasonable proximity to Chicago. And here we are in Milwaukee now.

I guess what I've gotta figure out is: if I move closer to family, should I prepare by gaining skills that might be employable in a small town, or a different industry (gas extraction vs utilities) that kind of thing. 

There are people around you living happy lives and raising successful children. Short of being in a war zone, this is true of almost everywhere. 

One of the more insane things my mother ever did was start apartment shopping in NYC. My sister was considering a job there and my mom was CONVINCED that it would be impossible to raise a child in New York unless she came along to help. We went round and round about how crazy that was and it only stopped when my sister didn't take the job. 

To counter that, I live in a slightly methy neighborhood with dogs that run loose so my kids can't play in the road. We were certain we'd move at some point, but life has momentum. Turns out all four of our kids are thriving. Academic opportunities we didn't know about have turned up and all four kids have grabbed onto them. They have healthy friend groups and are very active in after school stuff that makes them happy. If you had asked me this 15 years ago I would have told you that I KNEW that this was impossible living where I do. 

As stated before, life changes. At best you're guessing at what you know. I'm not saying to avoid a move, but be careful in thinking that a particular action will always produce the outcome that you want. 

Worthwhile advice, for sure.

I think I'm trying to plan for things that are contingent on other things that have not yet happened. 

I'm not a hardcore "everything must be planned" type of person, but I do like saying "ok here are some options and some possible routes that life might take, and here is what we'll do depending on this situation" so that way when something does come up and I can say "ah ha! I knew this would happen, good thing I'm prepared!"  In reality, things are a bit less interesting than that. 

Keep the bills paid. Hug your wife and kids. Cord your autocross tires before they age out.  Don't stress too much about the rest.