PFISpeed fined by EPA for selling Hondata

Keith Tanner said:

Slippery said:

Just a note that they were selling the Hondatas on their website. They were not installing them or tuning them. They still got fined. 

Also they mention that they had to provide the personal info of every customer that bought one of the 37 units. 

If they were trying to restrict sales to proven race cars only, the EPA might have been a bit more lenient. Selling them to the general public (including with a "for race cars only" disclaimer) is no different than installing them, really.

That may be legally true, but is logically a really poor argument. Could be used illegally is not the same as used illegally. Likely to be used illegally is closer, but still not completely accurate. 

The EPA has said that there is some plausibility involved. If you advertise a tuner as "for race use only" when it deletes the DPF on a diesel truck and you sell them by the tens of thousands...you're not selling it for race use. This is obviously a less clear case. But basically, the EPA has said it's up to the seller to ensure the parts are going to be used as intended because the days of wink wink it's totally going on my race car are over thanks to gratuitous abuse. If you are selling race-only parts, you have to be able to ensure they are being used only on race cars. 

It's kinda like selling Oxycotin to anyone without requiring a prescription. Sure, maybe they've got one. But just try it. 

Remember, you're dealing with a complex machine that's been through a whole raft of tests and requirements. You can use it all you want if you leave the parts involved alone. If you want to mess with the machine in such a way that it might affect the results of those tests, you have to pass the tests. If you want to sell parts that may affect the results of those tests, you have to prove the parts will not affect the results of the test. The "race car only" exemption is more of a future thing as it doesn't really exist in law yet, but I'll bet that if you are under investigation it would be in your favor if you could show you at least tried. Once the RPM Act is passed and there is such a thing as a permenently converted race car, do not be surprised if you have to supply some sort of proof. Your weekend autocrosser that is licensed for street use? Not a permently converted race car.

I see a lot of discussion about the legality of selling piggyback ECU's but not enough discussion about getting the US government to change the law or modify the law so enthusiasts can tune their cars. I'm surprised so many auto enthusiasts are willing to roll over and let the man take away their ability to tinker with their car.

In reply to loosecannon :

Honestly because from a racing and competition standpoint, if the exhaust system (and intake because secondary air systems) need to be stock, then it's a level playing field. Exhaust and aftermarket ECU companies Don't throw huge money into supporting sanctioned racing bodies or series, as tire companies and distributors do. So from an actual motorsport standpoint, it's pretty meh. 

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I understand but there needs to be some kind of process where people with already modified or in the middle of being modified aren't caught in the EPA net. Example: tell everyone that cars built after 2024 will not be allowed to have any emissions devices defeated or modified. This would at least give businesses and individuals a chance to prepare and adjust. The current rules seem to indicate that the EPA can fine businesses for modifying or defeating any emissions device on cars built after 1970 and that seems way too far reaching

All I keep read is guilty until you can outspend the government to prove innocence.

But yet last I had read, "our" air is cleaner then most of the rest of the countries on this inhabited rock rotating around the sun...

alfadriver said:

Since SEMA is asking for Congress to specifically pass a law, I would not think that the EPA is overstepping their mandate.  If that were the case, a simple lawsuit would solve that.  Whereas an act of congress would modify the mandate.

Anti-tampering has been a law for a very long time, and the EPA was knowingly overlooking motorsports, including people who actually work at the EPA.  We've gone over this many times, and people have abused that privilege to the point of forcing the EPA to act.  And it's highly likely that someone is complaining to the EPA to do something- they don't really have the resources to go out on their own without tips.

Lawsuits aren't as simple as you think.  You have to have "standing", and government agencies have an annoying habit of dropping fines or actions against individuals in order to prevent precedents from being set.  That doesn't stop them from trying to put those same fines or actions against other people, who then have to pony up their own money for their own suit -- which then gets dropped, etc.

The question of what some people are doing does not justify the EPA stepping outside the grounds that Congress authorized in the 70s and taking down innocents as collateral.  Wagging your finger and taking the toys away from all of the children just because some of them are misbehaving may work fine for a parent but it is not a legitimate use of government force and power.

loosecannon said:

I see a lot of discussion about the legality of selling piggyback ECU's but not enough discussion about getting the US government to change the law or modify the law so enthusiasts can tune their cars. I'm surprised so many auto enthusiasts are willing to roll over and let the man take away their ability to tinker with their car.

You can tune your car. You just can't make the emissions worse. Problem is, you have to prove it and that costs money so it's not very viable for most people. I do have a friend who's in the process of doing exactly that with a modified Integrale, though. It's possible.

Or you have someone else do the R&D and prove it for you, then you can bolt on a fully legal turbo kit. 

I'm not sure why there needs to be some sort of sunset clause. It doesn't matter how old the car is, it depends on when you sell the parts that affect the emissions. And the time to start preparing was a few years ago. We did. So did a bunch of the rest of the aftermarket. We paid a price for being proactive.

Anyhow, Ive been through this a bunch of times and I have stuff I need to do for the next few days. Have fun with this, everyone. I'm out. 

In reply to Ranger50 :

We all breathe the same air, it's why putting plastic in the ocean is a terrible idea. It doesn't matter what others do or what's in their backyard. If my neighbor's grass is knee high and he beats his spouse and kids, it doesn't mean that I can run a meth lab out of a well manicured she shed in my nicely kept back yard. 

With regards to the topic at hand, honestly a mileage or expiring age for regulations to be met, 15-20 years, is likely the answer. Everything OBD2 should be legal, but some sensors or EVAP emissions stuff that will cause CELs goes NLA or becomes stupid expensive as stock dwindles. The xB had a $400 EVAP canister and there was a TSB and they were still lucky to last 2 years. 

The thing that stinks is those who are cheating the rules will ruin it for the rest of us. Gone will be the ability to adjust fuel trim, timing, add flat foot shifting and other wonderful bits. I'll never understand the masses within nearly every hobby that instead of calling out those who create the problem and policing themselves, stand upon a hill and preach, don't take our (fill in the blank of whatever the hobby related object is). 

Lastly is the irony that SEMA was pushing for the creation of the RPM act. If you have an issue, reach out to your favorite vendor or distributor and ask them what the buffoons at SEMA are doing, question SEMA's leaderships competence and if and put they bring to the table anymore at this point in time. Call into question whether or not they're relevant, or at least with current leadership at the helm and demand them outline their direction and what they envision the direction for the industry going forward then question how viable and profitable it is for those within it. SEMA is barely fending off the right to repair, and in some places (Sacramento) they've manage to lose that battle in a completely different way. And you think they're actually competent enough to support and defend the performance aftermarket? 

A SEMA reminder

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'll just say that open loop is the devil to get ironed out and clean. I'm good in closed loop, but don't know that I'll manage to get there in open loop.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I think you did an excellent  job of presenting well researched and thought out information. And, since it directly effects you, I'm going to assume it's more correct information, than just opinions of what "should" be. Thanks. 

Ranger50 said:

All I keep read is guilty until you can outspend the government to prove innocence.

But yet last I had read, "our" air is cleaner then most of the rest of the countries on this inhabited rock rotating around the sun...

But that can't be true..."they" said industrial america will pollute the world into an unlivable rock before the turn of the century. Oh, wait... 

EPA told the ATF, "hold my beer, and watch this."

loosecannon said:

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I understand but there needs to be some kind of process where people with already modified or in the middle of being modified aren't caught in the EPA net. Example: tell everyone that cars built after 2024 will not be allowed to have any emissions devices defeated or modified. This would at least give businesses and individuals a chance to prepare and adjust. The current rules seem to indicate that the EPA can fine businesses for modifying or defeating any emissions device on cars built after 1970 and that seems way too far reaching

Tampering with emissions control devices has been illegal for a very long time.  The EPA has been knowingly overlooking motorsports for most of that time because the risk was seen as minimal, but in the mean time- people have been abusing that stance to the point of making the rule being enforced.

This isn't "the man" making up new rules for the sake of it, this is a long standing rule being enforced thanks to abuse of the system that allowed it to happen.

Companies have had decades to prepare for this, since that's how long the anti-tampering rules have been in place.  As have the rules to determine if a change changes the emissions in a meaningful way or not.

We've been over this before.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

alfadriver said:

Since SEMA is asking for Congress to specifically pass a law, I would not think that the EPA is overstepping their mandate.  If that were the case, a simple lawsuit would solve that.  Whereas an act of congress would modify the mandate.

Anti-tampering has been a law for a very long time, and the EPA was knowingly overlooking motorsports, including people who actually work at the EPA.  We've gone over this many times, and people have abused that privilege to the point of forcing the EPA to act.  And it's highly likely that someone is complaining to the EPA to do something- they don't really have the resources to go out on their own without tips.

Lawsuits aren't as simple as you think.  You have to have "standing", and government agencies have an annoying habit of dropping fines or actions against individuals in order to prevent precedents from being set.  That doesn't stop them from trying to put those same fines or actions against other people, who then have to pony up their own money for their own suit -- which then gets dropped, etc.

The question of what some people are doing does not justify the EPA stepping outside the grounds that Congress authorized in the 70s and taking down innocents as collateral.  Wagging your finger and taking the toys away from all of the children just because some of them are misbehaving may work fine for a parent but it is not a legitimate use of government force and power.

 

First, there are anti-tampering laws on the books, there have been for decades.  There have been instructions on how to make and market items that modify but don't change the emissions for about the same amount of time.  And both the EPA and CARB have been overlooking harsh enforcement of that for motorsports for this entire time so some of the good behaving children can have their toys.

So you need to explain how this is overreach.   We've been over this SO many times in the past few decades I've been part of this board, it's not even funny.

You want to keep the EPA overlooking these rules for motorsports as they have been for the entire time, fine.  Tell me how you enforce that.   The only way I can think of doing it is if the seller requires the car to not be registered, and has to get proof.  Forgive me is that sounds pretty 1) very intrusive for a company and 2) hard to really track.  From a legal standpoint, some of the rules in Street Prepared are no even legal, and have not been for at least 30 years.  

Heck, we assume that the coal rollers are so much worse for the air than gas cars that change things- I honestly don't know that- because nobody has tested it.  It's VERY possible that gas cars with modifications are worse than the coal rollers when you factor in how the vehicle is 100% used.

In the end, how do you selectively enforce a rule that covers every single vehicle on the road?  Legally, I mean.  If you allow gas cars to get away with it, the diesel folk will sue.  If you allow Hondadata but not HP Tuners, someone else will sue.  Either you enforce the law as written, or just get rid of the law.  And I do not see a path where the law will be taken off the books- as an emissions developer for an OEM, the result of allowing tampering will just tighten further rules- which isn't reasonable.  OEM's fully know and see this, BTW, and would lobby to not take the rules out, and put even more burden on further vehicles.

I know this has been discussed before. I appreciate the efforts- I learn a little more each time. 
 

This round I'm learning about the implications for modified street only cars. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

How does this effect FM?

It seems clear most of FM's products can be used on the street. 
 

Motor swaps?  Turbos?

Regardless of internal EPA enforcement policy, limited enforcement resources creates selective enforcement.  Outside of a specific complaint, I am curious what triggers an enforcement action against a company selling 37 Hondata systems vs. pursuing a company like HP Tuners?  HP Tuners have an active and obvious social media presence, a list of "tunable" vehicles constantly expanding that in my mind reduces the plausibility they are only being used for "off-road-use only" tuning, and are continually adding more tunable parameters.  I imagine they are selling annually 1000's of these. 

And if you are HP Tuners, short of an RPM type act being passed, what is your business strategy going forward? I am curious as well how they are, or will, address this issue?

Interesting it was Hondata this time. I see HPTuners being next...

Hopefully they leave the standalone folks alone, considering there isn't any pretending they satisfy emissions and should only be used on competition only vehicles 

I really want to K-swap my Civic but stuff like this is really making me wonder if I should.

But B-series are getting expensive and aren't as powerful. And a D-series sure isn't unless turbo and I don't know about track use reliablity.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I dont think it does (at the moment.) FM spends the time, money, and effort to prove to the EPA that their modifications are compliant to the regulations.  

Its interesting to see. A relatively small company like Flyin Miata doing the testing. Big players in the Miata community,  but that's always been niche car.

What's your company's excuse?

This sucks.

But with how we've flaunted ignoring the law (some more than others, obv) for years it was bound to happen.

My only hope is that istead of crying about how this isn't fair, that racers and car people come together to lobby for a legal outlet or option to mod our rides. I know I'll never stop, but I just hope for a legal path to do so.

In reply to Appleseed :

My company?  

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

The royal you. 

In reply to Appleseed :

I feel Kingly!