PFISpeed fined by EPA for selling Hondata

I wonder the legal possibilities of having and end user sign a legal agreement with a performance manufacturer. You sign the "This widget will be installed on a vehicle intended for off-road use only, etc, etc..." they send out the part once they get the notarized documents back.

That way, if flat billed vape Jonny puts super mega off-road cams in this Subaru, does something dumb with it, and gets busted, the performance manufacturer has documentation stating that Jonny said he wasn't going  to do just that. 

There will have to be some sort of gatekeeping process, especially once the RPM Act defines a race only car. I think Mazda's "Team Support" program is a pretty good model. You apply with information about your race car (and possibly a race license, I forget), get approved, then you are allowed to buy competition parts.

In reply to Appleseed :

Issue with that is flat billed vape Jonny won't sign it because that means a bigger delay in getting parts, and for those with a modicum of brain activity will realize they're on the hook if they get caught.

Leads to decline in business. 

There's no question but what increased enforcement is going to cause a decline in business.  I don't know what the percentages actually are but based on my observation large amounts of speed parts are sold to people who install them illegally on street cars.  That's pretty much the target market for things like diesel tuners.

That's a bummer but really anyone who's made a living out of selling an illegal product has to know that they were only going to get away with it for a limited amount of time.

In reply to APEowner :

From what I have been reading, a lot of people don't even realize that they are selling illegal products, and get quite indignant when it is pointed out to them.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

100% true. Or, if they did realize they were illegal, felt they shouldn't be. 

Honestly, until PFI got popped, I really had no clue. I kinda knew that what we street car guys did was kinda gray, but I never would have guessed that the industry would get hammered on. Nieve (I don't know how to spell that word and the squiggly red line is not helping me) yes.

I want to run Rocky Mtn Race Week so bad I can taste it. Yet, I also get where the EPA is coming from.

My emotions are very mixed on this. My heart and penis say Red Barchetta, my brain says Tesla plaid vintage sports car.

My biggest worry is the older hot rod guys that don't pay attention to the news any longer and may get hammered for their 50yo 1930s hot rod.

In reply to preach (fs) :

1930's hot rods don't fall under any emissions regulations.

You can still run Rocky Mtn Race Week.  Just do it in an emissions compliant car, don't see the issue there.

In reply to preach (fs) :

I think anything model year 1966 or earlier is exempt, as (IIRC) 1967 is when the Clean Air Act started affecting automobiles.  It has me tempted to look for something from the 50s-mid 60s as my next project.

Gentlemen, if you put a +CAA engine in a hot rod you will have to comply. I am willing to bet most are just that. That and if your car has a VIN it is not a race car.

I have come to terms that my car will have to meet the emissions of the donor engine. I do not have to like that fact, and I do not. Yet, as mentioned, I get it.

I feel that our hobby is a minor player in the overall issue.

In reply to preach (fs) :

Thirty years ago, putting a modern drivetrain engine in an older car was forbidden, too, because you were tampering from original.

In reply to preach (fs) :

Reading your comment, this makes me think that this situation closely parallels situations you'd see in racing, where rules are changed and teams/manufacturers have to find other ways to skirt around the rules.

Something that comes to mind is Volvo's slanted head in BTCC. The rules said you couldn't change intake/exhaust valve angles in the head, so just change the angle of the entire head. 

Ingenuity is bred from restriction. Sure, it sucks I can't throw a hot cam on my car without running into an emissions issue, but I'm sure someone will figure something out. 

hunter47 said:

In reply to preach (fs) :

Reading your comment, this makes me think that this situation closely parallels situations you'd see in racing, where rules are changed and teams/manufacturers have to find other ways to skirt around the rules.

Something that comes to mind is Volvo's slanted head in BTCC. The rules said you couldn't change intake/exhaust valve angles in the head, so just change the angle of the entire head. 

Ingenuity is bred from restriction. Sure, it sucks I can't throw a hot cam on my car without running into an emissions issue, but I'm sure someone will figure something out. 

VW angle cut the heads, by far less than what is considered normal for small block Chevys.  They also used a head from a V8, which had a VW part number.

Volvo....  TWR looked at the rules that said "Intake port face center to deck height must be within x tolerance", then milled the head a whole lot narrower (which was not illegal) so that to be legal they HAD to make the ports more downdrafted.  The rules said that material may not be added by welding, so they made bolt-on cam boxes.  Basically the only original parts of the head were the decks and combustion chambers, the rest was all bolt on stuff...

In reply to preach (fs) :

That law is nothing new, it's always been on the books.  When I motor swapped my 91 GTI back in 95, I had to use a newer G60 motor...

Bumpity bump.  HPTuners apparently has removed some functionality with the latest version, but any discussion of what has actually been removed gets deleted from their forum.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?92584-VCM-Suite-v4-10-Now-Available!

I can't find the blurb now, but someone posted a reference to a Justice Dept. ruling that nobody may allow alteration of code that controls rear oxygen sensors or EGR valves, or eliminates their fault codes from reading, on cars built MY2000 and newer.

So, I'm guessing I should not be updating my copy if I am given a choice.  (or buying/building a Megasquirt/Megashift)

Unsurprising. 
 

SEMA show in a month. I'm already booked in for a bunch of emissions meetings. 

eastsideTim said:

So, I'm guessing I should not be updating my copy if I am given a choice.  (or buying/building a Megasquirt/Megashift)

Yup.

Also, apparently 4.1 and up require that you have Internet connection to read or write (I forget which)

Would megasquirt be affected- given that it's not a "business"? It feels like open source stuff is going to be the only way to work the situation. I'm mainly concerned with "classic" older cars, but I'd love to maintain cam choices for the duratec I'm putting in the MG.  I'm on board with the overall goal.... there's no reason any more to be a big polluter, and I have to say... the leaded gas at the CSRG event at Sears Point was.... just not cool. 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

eastsideTim said:

So, I'm guessing I should not be updating my copy if I am given a choice.  (or buying/building a Megasquirt/Megashift)

Yup.

Also, apparently 4.1 and up require that you have Internet connection to read or write (I forget which)

Looks like I have 4.8.7, and it wants me to download Suite 4.10.4.  Hopefully it won't force a download/upgrade at some point.  I'm planning on running catalytic convertors, so rear O2 sensors are no big deal, but I'd need to go with a one year newer ECM to get rid of any potential EGR codes.

RE: Megasquirt - I'd suspect they could go after anyone who is selling a completed PnP Megasquirt unit with a base tune for an engine new enough to fall under the rules, but that has to be a tiny market compared to HPTuners or Holley.

Keith Tanner said:

SEMA show in a month. I'm already booked in for a bunch of emissions meetings. 

So, uh, any "top level" publicly discussable take aways from these sessions?

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to attend one of the meetings that would have been useful. 

Basic details haven't changed. The EPA has really ramped up staffing for mobile sources, as they have been identified as an area of interest in the current National Compliance Initiative. There were 31 cases last year and 30 so far this year. They're doing secret shopping and calling up companies to ask questions, so anything you say to anyone can be used. If someone calls us up and asks how to modify our legal Stage 1 turbo system to run on a Megasquirt with a deleted EGR and no OBD-II, we can't give overt or implied advice. 

Selling race parts and putting them on social media on cars with license plates is a good way to get busted. They're still going soft on real race cars but you would really have to show that you only sell the parts for real race cars, and you can't count on customer "self-certification" in this regard because customers have shown themselves to be unreliable. Also, a lot of investigations come from the tip line.

The EO process has changed (as expected) which should make it easier to get an EO, but harder to get a blanket EO for a large range of applications such as an MSD box for 30 years of GM vehicles. Also, interesting note, the EPA does compliance and enforcement whilst CARB does certification, which means there's quite a difference in industry experience and tech chops.

Lots of talk about doing emissions self-audits so that if the questions do come up, you can show your reasoning for why a product does not affect emissions. For example, a replacement intercooler that has the same inlet/outlet sizes but is less prone to heat soak could plausibly even decrease emissions, as the goal is improved cooling. But you have to show your work, preferably with some data. 

SEMA is planning to launch a program that will do the testing but without the paperwork overhead of an EO.  Should be less expensive and faster and give reasonable basis for the EPA, but will not allow for sales into CA.

I've been told that at least some of these sessions will be made public on SEMA's YouTube channel, but they're still chewing through weeks of video footage. You'll be glad to know that HP Tuners was sitting beside me and asking intelligent questions such as the viability of changing the parameters to trigger OBD codes if the new components/tune requires it for proper monitoring.

Note: a friend has managed to register a modified (big turbo, built engine) Lancia Delta Integrale in California legally. He did this by effectively going through all the emissions test for that model year, showing his car meets the emissions targets that would have been required of the car if it had been sold in the US new. It's not cheap, but remember this is a modified version of a car that was never sold here in the first place!

Keith Tanner said:

...They're still going soft on real race cars but you would really have to show that you only sell the parts for real race cars, and you can't count on customer "self-certification" in this regard because customers have shown themselves to be unreliable..

Are you aware of any progress towards defining a more or less standard way of showing that parts are only being sold for real race cars? 

No, and I wouldn't expect much real guidance until the RPM Act goes through - and maybe not then. You know what it's like when lawyers are involved. I would keep watching the big boys like the OEs and HP Tuners, the guys who have money for lots of lawyer time.

It is clear that self-certification is not sufficient. Some sort of centralized certified database of "retired" VIN numbers would be really useful. Who wants to start a business?