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frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/23/22 11:56 a.m.

A neighbor who is a head hunter spent the evening on our dock with us.  Sipping a few cool ones and dangling her toes in the water.        
 

   Apparently she already has over 300 teachers signed up taking new jobs rather than going back next fall.  So far she's placed most of them.  ( typically at a significant pay increase) And I guess most of the others at her company are in similar positions. 
    I read someplace that 46%  of all teachers are both frightened and tired of duck and cover drills.  Apparently lacking replacements, schools are hiring teacher assistants. No teaching license  just a willingness  to work for the school district. 
      Things aren't a whole lot better with bus drivers.   Wages are now getting up to $30/ hr. With experience. ( but to be fair those are the school districts that don't punish the kids for misconduct leaving the drivers deal with them).  .  

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/23/22 12:01 p.m.

We recently hired a teacher at my company. 

My aunt is getting divorced, and is leaving education. It doesn't pay enough. 

My HS girlfriend is leaving education. Can't take the politics (and it is now not just "politics" but actually political). 

My friend and neighbor who teaches at our local HS said that he's had to quit coaching because he doesn't have time... because he had to take on more classes. 

 

 

These are all anecdotes. They're spread across 4 states. Nobody mentioned anything about duck and cover or any of that. It is worrying to say the least. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/23/22 12:08 p.m.

In reply to mtn :

I'm sure every teacher has their reasons for  leaving. Those you've mentioned I've certainly heard. 
      Some schools simply lock doors for shooting drills while others have gone as far as bullet proof glass.  

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Dork
6/23/22 12:11 p.m.

I think America is kinda notorious for not paying teachers enough. They should be well-paid, respected members of society considering they're teaching and helping to raise the next generation of leaders. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 12:17 p.m.

I have a dozen educators in my family (different parts of the country).  All were well paid, and retired well with excellent benefits for life. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/23/22 12:18 p.m.

My wife is a teacher. Her school lost a ton of teachers. Most teachers that are leaving have been leaving because either the internal and external politics or just the over the top work load or a combo of both. Basically every teacher my wife knows is on anxiety meds or depression meds. My wife loves teaching but she hates the work place politics and if she leaves it will be because of that. The pay is trash for the level of education you have to have.

Tbh I have heard of anyone leave because of active shooter drills or anything like that.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
6/23/22 12:18 p.m.

My wife is a tenured Public School Elementary Teacher.  

It amazes me when public school teachers say their are surprised how political the job is.  It's the very definition of political...public service!  But, I agree that sucks and has gotten worse.  

At least in Ohio, what they don't tell young teachers is, "by the 5th year of teaching and certainly by the 7th year, you better like that school district you teach at because you have to stay there for the rest of your career."  Ohio has good benefits and retirement for teachers and in the public system your pay increases with years.  But, by year 7, the district can hire 1.5 to 2 new teachers for what they will have to pay you.  So, if you think you want to change districts, they will overlook your application and instead hire 1.5 to 2 new/young/cheap teachers.  

I've seen girls say, "my husband is planning career military (and might be anywhere) so I'm going into teaching because they need teachers everywhere."  Oh, it doesn't work that way.  They need cheap teachers everywhere but the money doesn't follow you.  I tell most people I meet that have a teaching degree and looking for a job, "in just one year, some accelerated nursing programs will make you a nurse."  

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
6/23/22 12:19 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

How long ago did they retire?

I graduated HS in 2000. Had a chance to chat with a teacher I looked up to a couple years later (sometime '02-'05) about getting into teaching. He said he would have recommended it before, but not anymore.

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
6/23/22 12:19 p.m.

In reply to infinitenexus :

They also get a ridiculous amount of the blame too, when it should be pointed at the DoE. I'll grant there are bad teachers, there are bad people in every profession, but most of them are just trying to do the best with the tools they're given.

I haven't known anyone become a teacher in a while. Those that did either left the profession for more money and less bullE36 M3, or just left the state entirely for more money and a better climate. 

Although I did just find out in our tiny rural district the superintendent was making $160k a year, and is moving to another district for $180k. So there's definitely money there (in education), it's just not maybe not getting where it should be? 

No, I don't know what a superintendent does, but I'm always sceptical of people that make $10k a month. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 12:22 p.m.

In reply to John Welsh :

That's true. There is a correlation between pay and how long you've been in the position. Switching districts doesn't work. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 12:24 p.m.

In reply to Beer Baron :

Varies. Several still teach. 
 

I wish I'd stuck with teaching. My raw salary puts teachers to shame, but the entire package would have been much better over time as a teacher. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/23/22 12:25 p.m.
RevRico said:

In reply to infinitenexus :

No, I don't know what a superintendent does, but I'm always sceptical of people that make $10k a month. 

A previous superintendent here had several million disappear during his time in charge. Now they are all running for congress...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/23/22 12:33 p.m.

I'm from a family of teachers (grandfather, uncle, mother, father) and I was heading that direction myself. It's a vocation, not a job. People go into it because hey, summers off! and discover it's a really tough gig. The burnout rate for new teachers is pretty high. I seem to recall music teachers was something like 18 months average. So you have to separate the normal attrition from special attrition. That said, it's definitely been a rough couple of years that has changed education quite a bit - the transition to online learning, already happening, got kickstarted.

There was a point in my education where I realized how much politics were going to be involved. It was a course called "the philosophy of music education" and it was basically "you're going to be fighting for the survival of your department constantly so you need to have a strong philosophy of why it should exit". That was an eye opener. I mean, I'd seen it as a student but I hadn't considered it.

At least in Ontario (where I was expecting to teach), there's a cycle to the need for teachers that's boomerish. There was a big spike in the need for teachers in the 60s, then there were more teachers than jobs, then that cohort retired and there was a big demand, etc. At the time I was looking to get into teacher's college, Ontario was facing a retirement event that was going to open up a lot of positions for new teachers. It's coming up on 30 years since that point, so we may be seeing it again.

Teachers are highly underappreciated and should be paid well. I don't understand why there is the need for tenure at the primary and secondary school level, that's something that didn't exist where I grew up and it does seem to protect sub-standard teachers.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
6/23/22 12:34 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to John Welsh :

That's true. There is a correlation between pay and how long you've been in the position. Switching districts doesn't work. 

Once tenured, which my wife is, it's near impossible to get fired as a teacher (short of touching the kids.)  When was the last time you heard of a teacher fired (in the public school system.)  

I've had jobs that paid more than my wife but since tenure we have considered her job the "good job."  The whole reason I could be self employed is because of the good benefits my wife's job offers and extend to me too.  

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
6/23/22 12:38 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Tenure does have the unintended consequence of protecting bad teachers but without the tenure rules (and the strong Ohio Teachers Union) there would never be a teacher making more than starting wage.  It'd be like McD's; an endless stream of new hire, low wage employees.  

All this varies state-by-state

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
6/23/22 12:40 p.m.

A good friend of mine left a lucrative job at an insurance company to become a high school teacher.  His politics tend toward the more conservative, so I wonder how he deals with what is stereotypically a not-conservative profession.  Still, I get the sense he finds it very fulfilling. 

Agreed it ought to be a highly respected position.  Unfortunately a small number of wide-eyed, over/under medicated wack-jobs on Tic Toc do no small injury to that reputation. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/23/22 12:44 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

In reply to SV reX :

How long ago did they retire?

I graduated HS in 2000. Had a chance to chat with a teacher I looked up to a couple years later (sometime '02-'05) about getting into teaching. He said he would have recommended it before, but not anymore.

And also what state. Friends in my district earn good money, especially if they were able to start their careers here and got a masters. My aunt, on the other hand, in Indiana, has a masters and after 20-25 years in the same district was earning less than I did 3 years into my career... Without a masters.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/23/22 12:47 p.m.
John Welsh said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Tenure does have the unintended consequence of protecting bad teachers but without the tenure rules (and the strong Ohio Teachers Union) there would never be a teacher making more than starting wage.  It's be like McD's; an endless stream of new hire, low wage employees.  

All this varies state-by-state

It must, because there's no tenure that I've ever heard of in Ontario and teachers were not getting fired constantly to be replaced with fresh meat. They do have a strong union, though.

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
6/23/22 12:56 p.m.

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year. Sure she got summers off but she ended up spending at least some of that time prepping her classroom for the following year. If she had a supportive team that would have helped but it was basically like being in high school again. She is a stay at home parent for now but if she goes back to teaching may go back as a librarian. 

 

The benefits that were once guaranteed have eroded over the years (much like government work). She was having to spend several hundred dollars a year on classroom essentials after the PTA gave her a couple hundred they donated for that purpose.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
6/23/22 1:17 p.m.
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
6/23/22 1:20 p.m.

most of the teachers I know are exiting or looking for the exit.  

My mother was a teacher back in the 90's, but the stuff they are fighting these days....  I get why they want out.  The parents are a big common theme I hear. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 1:27 p.m.

My wife can only afford to do her job, as a teacher, because she has me as a sugar daddy.  She makes less than you would make at a Starbucks or Home Depot.   She has always wanted to become a teacher, since age of 12.   The economics don't make sense and combined with the bullE36 M3 oversight/ politics it's not worth it.   The last straw with many teachers has been how absolutely awful parents have been recently.
 

 Nothing like a pandemic to bring out the crazies.  We got stories.   One of my wife's parents refused to wear a mask to enter the building so my wife offered zoom conferences.  The parent refused saying they wanted in person interviews in school no mask.  My wife doesn't violate policy so this parent became a tremendous ass pain. 
 

the other parent was one who needed to know that all teachers weren't going to be vaccinated because apparently being near vaccinated people would cause her sons sperm motility to drop.  
 

her son is in 1st grade. 
 

The low pay + the parents + active shooter stress + beuacracy of the public schools = anyone who isn't tenured leaving 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/23/22 1:28 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

6 days a week though. Lets call it 10 months. $50k. Doesn't get you very far today.

MiniDave
MiniDave New Reader
6/23/22 1:28 p.m.

I taught college automotive courses for 5 years after I retired (aged out) of my "real" job, it was the most frustrating yet fun job I've had. I loved interacting with my students, even tho only about 1/3 of my class was there to actually learn. I had a great department chair who really handled the political crap well and kept almost all of it off my plate while still teaching at least 2 classes a semester and in summer too. One of the major discussions we had every semester was am I teaching to teach or teaching to pass the tests? Because getting a significant percentage of students to pass the course was a requirement - whether they learned anything or not. The first day of class I gave the final exam -  it didn't count of course but was used to gauge progress by comparing the scores for the same test at the end of the semester. Every year I was appalled at the low scores, both the first and last time around on the test!

I retired at 5 years because the incoming president changed the educational requirements for the teachers and while I could have taken courses to meet those requirements and kept teaching (the school would have paid for the classes too) I felt there was a real disconnect between me and the students I was trying to teach - I blame me as much as the kids - but we really couldn't "relate".

Of course, 1/3 of my class were kids who were told by their mom either get out of the basement and go to school or get a job and move out, another 1/3 were actually on "work release" and were taken back to jail after class and the final 1/3 were actually there to learn. That may sound harsh, but it was fairly accurate......I think the same holds true for elementary and high school students as well (maybe not the jail part) in that it's up to the teacher to not only educate but entertain and enlighten, get the kids to want to learn. I didn't have it in me - I thought they should want to learn - after all, they were paying for the classes -  and because I had all the answers that they would at least ask questions. It was like trying to talk to a group of rocks at times......

We did active shooter training every semester, along with racial and gender sensitivity training, IT safety training and on and on.....it felt like I spent as much time at school training for training as I did teaching!

The pay was meh, no bennies since I was an adjunct and not full time, the only real bennie was access to the shop when there were no classes scheduled there. I miss that! We had a great facility, with all the auto equipment (including alignment machines that used frickin lasers!) you could even need or want, and access to fully stocked machine and welding shops as well.

When I left in my department there was one full time teacher, the department chair and about 10 adjuncts as that's all they would pay for......

I know this is a long read, but one of the things that caused issues for me as a teacher was the absolute lack of basic education in my students - an example: I was teaching how a thermostat worked, so I asked the class what temperature water boiled at - crickets! Another time I was trying to teach induction so I started with magnets - no one knew that magnets had 2 poles, or anything about magnetic attraction, repulsion or lines of force. That was stuff I leaned by 2nd grade! It was woeful......no one could write a complete sentence let alone a paper discussing even a subject they were familiar with like their favorite car.

I was happy to leave the self imposed stress, but felt a complete failure at the job, even tho my chair and a few other teachers thought I did a good job.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 1:29 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

My wife has two masters degrees. She makes way under thst a year.   An administrative assistant at amazon make 90k a year. No masters degree needed.  A truck driver for Walmart makes $100k starting.   
 

teaching is a scam.  My wife just had to pay for her own continuing education to stay current in the state. She has no benefits.   If I were to expire she'd get a raise being a barista at Starbucks 

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