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John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
6/23/22 1:30 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

I see your point...I really do.  But, for my wife and 3rd grade...

Her shool year is done June 8th-ish and back to school Aug 23rd-ish.  Summer break really means July.  End of year always means some end of year training/meeting/room take down.  The janitorial staff does a deep clean over summer and it requires things to be moved to accommodate, etc.  There is also usually a week-long training/workshop/requirement of some sort of teacher's education.  Two days ago, June21 she said she was done for the summer.  

About Aug 15th she'll have new student assignments and she'll be prepping for a new year.  So, maybe 7 weeks. 

What also is missed is what teachers call, "second shift" this is grading and prep that starts at home after your own kids go to bed.  My wife is paid well but if you factored her job on a hourly basis vs the salary she gets, it would be E36 M3 per hour.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/23/22 1:30 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

Over the course of the year, she made $42k. That's $42k/year. Don't try to make it sound like teachers just sit around sipping drinks in the sunshine for three months or that they work a classic 9-5 for 5 days a week for the rest of it.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
6/23/22 1:40 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

My wife has two masters degrees. She makes way under thst a year.   An administrative assistant at amazon make 90k a year. No masters degree needed.  A truck driver for Walmart makes $100k starting.   
 

teaching is a scam.  My wife just had to pay for her own continuing education to stay current in the state. She has no benefits.   If I were to expire she'd get a raise being a barista at Starbucks 

Mr Caffeine is in the same state as Frenchy.  I think Mr Caffeine has gotten to the real issue. 

As said by many in various ways...
it varies state by state and
benefits and pay is on a decline verses historical
job BS is up
wages elsewhere seem more attractive.  

Active shooter might be a piece of the "job BS" but its just another straw on the already nearly broken back.  

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 1:45 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

Over the course of the year, she made $42k. That's $42k/year. Don't try to make it sound like teachers just sit around sipping drinks in the sunshine for three months or that they work a classic 9-5 for 5 days a week for the rest of it.

Yes. My wife is paid her salary over 12 months. She does not spend the summer sipping drinks. She's taking classes and learning about new ways to teaching. She barely gets a day off.   
 

she is paid less than a babysitter per kid. 

 

18 kids in my wife's class. 180 school days in a year. 6 hours a day of time watching kids at say $10/kid/hr. That's low for a babysitting rate around here. That'd be $194k per year gross.  
 

 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
6/23/22 1:47 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

Not to throw another wrench into the discussion, but is your wife employed by a public or private school?

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/23/22 1:55 p.m.

I have a friend, a nephew in law who and my sister (recently retired).  I would agree school shooting are likely very far down the list of their issues with teaching.

As noted, I would say as a guess, it's probably a toss up between the internal politics of the job and the students.  As my sister noted, it's not really the students though.  You can pretty much 100% predict what you can expect from meeting the parents of bad students, they are VERY related.

My sister also had the unmitigated gall of wanting to actually grade students... on there performance!!  And even wanted to hold back students who in now way passed a class!!!  Imagine!   That of course did not go over well with admin (push em through... get em out... make sure you get attendance though... that's money!)

As someone said, the current educational system is a akin to prisoners running the prison (bad analogy I know).  It clearly sounds almost as stupid to say: the students running the school....

Of note also is that not all "teachers" are low paid.  I wanted to make a cartoon for my nephew in law, who worked at a special ed campus on the same campus of the district office.  The cartoon would be two teacher talking in the parking lot of the office discussion how next years budget will be tight and that the supervisors are in the office now "trying to figure out where all the money goes".  Of course in the background is parked cars of the supervisors, all of which are Mercedes and Tesla's (which is what the actual parking lot did look like).

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 1:57 p.m.

In reply to mtn :

My wife is at a private school.  She could teach public, has all the training and carts, but does this becuse she has a passion for Montessori.  This choice is a luxury because of my job.  
 

but she has many friends who work in public schools or did.  She also comes from a long line of teachers.  

CJ
CJ Dork
6/23/22 1:58 p.m.

Both my bride and I were teachers and, later, administrators. 

Our daughter had kids and decided she was going go to college so she had more options.  Thought she wanted to get her teacher's credential.  We both talked her out of it; low pay, long hours, and lack of respect by the public all said 'NO' to education.  She is now an operating room nurse and loves it.

In my career in education, I never worked less than 50 hours a week during the school year.  During the summer, I had required continuing education courses to complete and prep for my courses for the following year.  I also spent a huge amount of time maintaining the technology at my school site - unpaid time by the way - but it had to be done.

Anyone that thinks that being a teacher is 8:00 AM to 3:00 PM and three months off (by the way mid-June to late August is not three months), has lost their berkeleying mind.

TJL (Forum Supporter)
TJL (Forum Supporter) Dork
6/23/22 2:11 p.m.

Only speaking for my central Florida county, the public schools are a nightmare.  My son is in elementary school. Its chaos. Some of The 4th and 5th graders are huge and are more interested in social life and being a turd.  The schools can not handle the issues. My son and several others in his class were being physically abused by a autistic student who got violent when the turd kids would spin him up. The teacher could do NOTHING. Not until they had a huge file and a bunch of parents ready to loose it if their kid go hit with a flying backpack or flying chair again. Repeatedly the teacher and other students were just left to deal with it until they could take the complaints to the parents and basically kick the kid out and hopefully get him at an Autism center where  the environment will be right for him. 
 

same thing happened to a friend, but her kid was the violent one.  The only way she could get him to a proper school was to get him kicked out of public school. 
 

my mom was a career educator long ago at a different time. my brother, sister and sis in law all took teaching jobs in recent years in my county. They all have so many horror stories and just example after example of things just "lost in the system" and nobody wants to deal with it so they just leave it on the teacher to suck it up.  The kids were constantly on their cel phones, usually on porn sites. One kid straight up had open sores and a MRSA diagnosis and was attending school.  You get lucky and at least have a few kids who aren't turds, then even a few who are good and want to learn, but they cant compete much with the circus.  They all left the job in less than 2 years and firmly understood that to most parents, school is daycare for their badly behaved kids.  None of them had teaching credentials.
 

and then yeah, the pay is trash and you still have to spend your own $ on supplies. Really makes me want to home school my son.  
 

i dont see the situation getting better either. The counties financial priorities certainly are not with the school system. They are way more interested in corruption and making sure the land developers are catered too. Not until they run out of people willing to try teaching will they care. 

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
6/23/22 2:14 p.m.
infinitenexus said:

I think America is kinda notorious for not paying teachers enough. They should be well-paid, respected members of society considering they're teaching and helping to raise the next generation of leaders. 

You know who does pay their teachers well?  Canada. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 2:15 p.m.

In reply to Scotty Con Queso :

Also any Scandinavian country. 

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
6/23/22 2:15 p.m.

Didn't realize how bad it has gotten. +1 more reason to stay north in Pittsburgh (against my will) is thanks to our schools. Best in the state. Some of the best in the country. Our teachers stick around. 

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
6/23/22 2:16 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

I was being a smart ass about his strong desire to move to the land of Timmy's. 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/23/22 2:20 p.m.
TJL (Forum Supporter) said:

...same thing happened to a friend, but her kid was the violent one.  The only way she could get him to a proper school was to get him kicked out of public school....

Yeah, that was the other thing that came up a lot with the special needs teacher nephew.

It was pretty clear one of the basic issues is that horrible students (be it behavioral issues or otherwise) are essentially forced to be in the same classes / schools as kids that want to learn.  Obviously this is not good for anyone one involved.

This was even the case with special needs kids.  One, almost certainly to become homicidal at some point, was VERY difficult to remove from his classes... yes... you guessed it... the parents...

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/23/22 2:20 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

You certainly don't get 3 months off between having to end the year later then the kids to pack up the room, professional development and then starting back to work to prep the room.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 2:29 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to mtn :

My wife is at a private school.  She could teach public, has all the training and carts, but does this becuse she has a passion for Montessori.  This choice is a luxury because of my job.  
 

but she has many friends who work in public schools or did.  She also comes from a long line of teachers.  

I hear your frustration, and respect it. But with all due respect, a lot of what you are complaining about were choices you and your wife made. 
 

I love that she has a passion for Montessori. I think that is incredible. Part of choosing that path includes lower wages. 
Just like many other careers. 

 

I manage construction of commercial buildings. But my passion is creative and historic work and getting my hands on it. I have chosen to do commercial work because of the money. And my wife has chosen to stay at home and earn nothing while she pursues her own passion- writing, teaching, and blogging. She makes nothing. 
 

I could choose higher paying roles. I could easily get a 30% bump in pay by doing work in metro areas, or hospital work. And our household would be 50-70% richer if my wife got a paying job.  We have made these choices because it is the balance of stress/ passion/ revenue we are comfortable with.

I spent a decade managing volunteer crews in third world countries. For those 10 years, my wife and I BOTH made $0.  But I was passionate about it, and would do it again.  For exactly the same pay.

Passion is really important.  But it often comes with lower paychecks. Ask any artist, or actor, or volunteer at a food kitchen...
 

Here is my standard... How do median teacher salaries (including benefit packages) compare to other local wage earners. They almost all fall well above the median income for the local economies.

Except, of course, Montessori teachers. They have a very special and unique calling. It's a gift. One that I couldn't do.

 

But I WAS being trained as a teacher, and wish I had stayed on that track.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/23/22 2:29 p.m.
mtn said:
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

6 days a week though. Lets call it 10 months. $50k. Doesn't get you very far today.

Plus, every teacher I know (including my wife, her mother, and best friend, and supported by studies) has spent a significant portion of their own income on supplies. 
 

NY Times:

According to a federal Department of Education survey released on Tuesday, 94 percent of public school teachers in the United States reported paying for supplies without reimbursement in the school year that straddled 2014 and 2015.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 2:31 p.m.

Oh, and I also work lots of unpaid time. 15-20 hours every single week. But it has to be done. 

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
6/23/22 2:31 p.m.

My intention when I stopped racing horses and started college was to apply to veterinary school to get my father to stop talking about it, then become a teacher. I never expected to get admitted to veterinary school.
 

I work very hard to live up to that goal every day when I interact with my clients and employees. Teaching is one of the most important jobs in existence.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 2:42 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah. She makes 30k a year now and would make 40k a year of teaching in a public school.  The argument for passion and artist dosent work for a public service.  The town sewer guys make more and have better benefits.  
 

anyways my wife is putting together her exit plan to get out of the classroom. She's going to be a consultant who assists other teachers. 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
6/23/22 3:01 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah. She makes 30k a year now and would make 40k a year of teaching in a public school.  The argument for passion and artist dosent work for a public service.  The town sewer guys make more and have better benefits.  
 

anyways my wife is putting together her exit plan to get out of the classroom. She's going to be a consultant who assists other teachers. 

Here's the issue, she knew the wages going in, and made that choice.  The next Statement will be "But it's a calling" and that is ok, I agree for most it is a passion and they don't see themselves doing anything else, but if someone is truly doing it for the love of teaching the wages would not matter. It's either a passion and you accept the wages, or it's not. 

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/23/22 3:03 p.m.
Beer Baron said:

In reply to SV reX :

How long ago did they retire?

I graduated HS in 2000. Had a chance to chat with a teacher I looked up to a couple years later (sometime '02-'05) about getting into teaching. He said he would have recommended it before, but not anymore.

I had a similar discussion with my HS science teacher when I asked him about becoming a teacher.

That was in 1987.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/23/22 3:04 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah. She makes 30k a year now and would make 40k a year of teaching in a public school.  The argument for passion and artist dosent work for a public service.  The town sewer guys make more and have better benefits.  
 

anyways my wife is putting together her exit plan to get out of the classroom. She's going to be a consultant who assists other teachers. 

Here's the issue, she knew the wages going in, and made that choice.  The next Statement will be "But it's a calling" and that is ok, I agree for most it is a passion and they don't see themselves doing anything else, but if someone is truly doing it for the love of teaching the wages would not matter. It's either a passion and you accept the wages, or it's not. 

Except we need teachers to have an educated workforce and we need an educated workforce to have a successful country.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 3:18 p.m.

In reply to 93EXCivic :

I agree. That's why we have so many different kinds of teachers offering so many different kinds of service. 
 

She is a Montessori teacher. She is not a government employee. Comparing her to the sewer guys is an unfair comparison. 
 

The sewer guys make more than me too. We need clean water to have a successful country. I'm good with that. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 3:27 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to SV reX :

Yeah. She makes 30k a year now and would make 40k a year of teaching in a public school.  The argument for passion and artist dosent work for a public service.  The town sewer guys make more and have better benefits.  
 

anyways my wife is putting together her exit plan to get out of the classroom. She's going to be a consultant who assists other teachers. 

Here's the issue, she knew the wages going in, and made that choice.  The next Statement will be "But it's a calling" and that is ok, I agree for most it is a passion and they don't see themselves doing anything else, but if someone is truly doing it for the love of teaching the wages would not matter. It's either a passion and you accept the wages, or it's not. 


 

 

you can use this message board because of teachers. You can read and write because of the foundational skills provided by them.  But yet you want to tell us it's a "choice". 

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