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Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 3:28 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to 93EXCivic :

I agree. That's why we have so many different kinds of teachers offering so many different kinds of service. 
 

She is a Montessori teacher. She is not a government employee. Comparing her to the sewer guys is an unfair comparison. 
 

The sewer guys make more than me too. We need clean water to have a successful country. I'm good with that. 

She could be. Public Montessori and all 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 3:28 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

You said earlier Montessori was her passion. Yep.. a choice. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 3:30 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Minnesota has the largest and oldest network of public Montessori schools in the nation. My kids go to a public montessori school that goes up to 8th grade 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 3:31 p.m.

...and my own kids were taught by teachers who made the choice to receive no compensation whatsoever for their entire school careers. 
 

Guess what?  They can read and write too!

 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 3:32 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

ok. I think that's great. I was wrong about the government job. 
 

Still an employment choice. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 3:32 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Homeschooling is not an option for many. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 3:33 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

I never said anyone should choose homeschooling.  I generally recommend against it. 
 

I said your wife made a choice about her employment. 

fanfoy
fanfoy SuperDork
6/23/22 4:03 p.m.

Some people do not seem to understand the issue. "They knew the conditions and it's their choice". Yes they do. And that's why they are leaving.

And that's the issue. It's the same issue with workers in a bunch of industries like the fast food people. No one wants to work there. While everyone will be fine (probably better) if a bunch of fast food places closes, a lack of an education system is a HUGE problem for any country.

My girlfriend is a third grade teacher here in Canada. The situation is pretty similar to the US. At 48 years old, she will be the oldest/most experienced teacher in her school next year. And she wants out. BAD. The politics, the terrible parents, the bad pay, the long hours... She would be better off working at Costco.

I did a semester as a teaching assistant in a local technical college. I lasted one semester. The politics are absolutely absurd. It was a complete turn-off for me. While I was very liked by my peers and the students, I did not like it enough to endure the BS.

And there is no sector that can survive long term by relying on people that have "the calling".

Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter)
Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/23/22 4:11 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

I never said anyone should choose homeschooling.  I generally recommend against it. 
 

I said your wife made a choice about her employment. 

and isn't that the whole point of this thread? Between the pay, long hours, politics, etc., people are choosing other careers. I don't blame them, but it does potentially create a shortfall (both numbers and talent) in a job that is critical to the development of kids and ultimately the long term health of our county. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
6/23/22 4:13 p.m.

Wife just changed school districts. AFter 19 years at the same one it had grown so much and forgot that the teachers are important. She's going from a school district with 13 elementary schools and 23,000 students K-12 to one with 2 elementary schools and a total of 1700 k-12. From former suburban turning urban to rural. She took a pretty big pay cut, but the attitude from the staff and district is completely different. Rather than "you're on your own" attitude at the big school it's an "all hands on deck, let us know how to help". 

She wasn't planning on continuing teaching. She was going to leave but that meant she would have to work 12 years until retirement age. Working at a small district, that cuts it literally in half so she can retire in 6 years.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
6/23/22 4:17 p.m.

In reply to Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) :

Yup. I agree. 
 

And when people vote with their feet, problems usually get solved.  I'm all for it. 
 

But this is not a financial problem. Very few teachers who are leaving would choose to stay if offered substantial pay increases (without other changes).

EVERY industry is short staffed right now. And it's gonna get a LOT worse. 

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
6/23/22 4:41 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

Correct. My wife took a substantial pay cut to go somewhere to be appreciated and have support and help when needed. As a special ed teacher those are important.Obviously more important than the pay.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
6/23/22 4:47 p.m.
93EXCivic said:
RevRico said:

In reply to infinitenexus :

No, I don't know what a superintendent does, but I'm always sceptical of people that make $10k a month. 

A previous superintendent here had several million disappear during his time in charge. Now they are all running for congress...

Yeah, we had one of those, too.  Turns out he had sealed court records from his previous job in another state, but our wonderful School Board hired him anyway.

He's gone now, but this district is basically on double secret probation from the state because of that.

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
6/23/22 4:48 p.m.

This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.


jgrewe
jgrewe HalfDork
6/23/22 5:00 p.m.

My wife was a teacher for 15 years total. She took some time off to get our own kids on the right track when they were young. She taught art because she loves art. She got fed up with the adults she had to deal with. To the other staff she was "just an Art teacher" and was treated as such. As in like crap. Little did they know she has both a teaching degree and an art history degree. She's certified to teach anything K-12.

She had a problem with a kiln vent at a school that didn't come on when it was supposed to and filled a room with smoke from wax on the pottery. They tried to put all kinds of bad marks on her record and called her in for a meeting. They questioned her methods on using wax resist to keep glaze off the foot of projects, saying "Nobody else does that."

*background -my wife focused on ceramics in college and we have 3 kilns of our own, 2 ceramic, 1 glass fusing.

My wife blew up and told the supervisor she didn't know what she was talking about, that she was ruining the art program by hiring people that would make better accountants. A ventilation fan failed and both people in the meeting could berkeley off. And, "I quit"

She was escorted from building.

She now works at a well known museum in downtown St Pete. The teaching nightmares have mostly stopped...

 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
6/23/22 5:10 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

I never said anyone should choose homeschooling.  I generally recommend against it.

When we began homeschooling our first child back in 2018, generally every relative and acquaintance we had was either hesitant about our decision, or flat out against it.  My parents offered to pay for her private school tuition- wherever we wanted to send her.  We refused. 

4 years later, the tune has completely done a 180 degree flip.  Now everyone we talk to thinks we made the best decision.  I could be boastful and claim that's because of the results we've had with our (now) two kids in homeschool, but I think the main reason is not how well we've done, but how poorly the schools are doing it. 

Having seen what I've seen, the educational system is the biggest single source of systemic racism in this country. 

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
6/23/22 5:22 p.m.

In reply to SV reX :

That is odd as I know several teachers that would stay in teaching if they didn't have to have a second job/hustle in order to pay their bills. I have several coworkers that have to work nights and weekends just to make ends meet. 

I suspect that it isn't going to be all that long before this thread gets closed so I am bailing. 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
6/23/22 5:35 p.m.

The pay part is very much a regional issue, as pay can vary greatly from state to state- for teachers and for pretty much every job. I haven't seen any evidence that teacher's pay has gotten worse historically. That tells me that is not the primary reason why teachers are leaving. I have a lot of teachers in my family. Lots of smart people who know they could have made more money elsewhere, that's not why they became teachers. They wanted to teach- that is a big part of the equation. Not comparable to working at Mc D's or Costco. Here is CA, we have plenty of well paid (2nd highest in the country) unhappy teachers. So what changed? The job changed. Students are night and day different from when I was in school. Not the average student- but the bottom end that causes the most headaches and drains the most resources. Stuff that used to be urban legends- a student cussing out or assaulting a teacher- are now daily occurrences. They are forced to accept students that would have been removed from the classroom not long ago. They also have less freedom in the classroom. Many have mentioned politics- both workplace and literal politics intrude on the classroom. Basically, the job is not as satisfying as expected or used as it used to be for many. And that expectation is a big part of why people choose to teach. Either something will change and teachers will start enjoying teaching again- or we will have to pay more to teachers that don't really want to be there. 

jwagner (Forum Supporter)
jwagner (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/23/22 6:37 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Steve_Jones said:
singleslammer said:

In reply to mtn :

That is what Missouri is like. My wife has a masters and was working 6 days a week for $42k a year.

No she was working 9 months for $42k, if she worked all 12 it would be $56k a year. You can't take 3 months off and count it in any other job, why this one?

Over the course of the year, she made $42k. That's $42k/year. Don't try to make it sound like teachers just sit around sipping drinks in the sunshine for three months or that they work a classic 9-5 for 5 days a week for the rest of it.

I have a bunch of teachers amongst my family and social circle.  I calculated the "9 month" thing for my daughter in law and compared it to my corporate job with holidays/vacation/etc factored in.  With the evening prep time, weekends, days in school before and after the kids were let off, parent teacher conferences, etc., she was working the same hours as I was expected to within a few percent.  Two masters degrees, 7 years experience, and the pay wasn't enough to live on.  She loved teaching but had to leave it.

Listening to the tales from teachers in some of the better suburban school districts around here, you couldn't pay me enough to teach.  Kids coming to school totally unprepared (playing video games all night, no glasses or supplies, mountain dew and concentrated sugar cereals for breakfast, parents that don't give a damn, etc., etc.), live shooter lockdowns that aren't drills - and the kids are of course justifiable terrorized, lousy pay and mediocre benefits (Wisconsin), uneven management quality, and long hours make it a really unattractive profession. 

The teachers in the family that retired ten years ago did just fine.  It's not such a good place to be these days.

WilD
WilD Dork
6/23/22 6:42 p.m.

My grandmother was a teacher, my mother was a teacher, my wife is a teacher.  While public school pay is not terrible in this state, it has not kept up with other fields that require similar training and the generous benefits are gone.  The pensions my mother and grandmother received were phased out gradually.  My wife has a less generous one, and younger teachers don't have any pension available.  So, compensation is one issue.  Many teachers find they can make more elsewhere.  Many younger teachers have multiple roomates or live with their parents. 

So, pay isn't great, but the number one reason all the teachers are leaving is the stress and overwork.  It's an exhausting job in some of these schools and they are already dangerously understaffed.  I can't do justice to all the horror stories that I hear daily, but it's more stress than I would put up with for my salary, and I make more than double what she does despite her having more education and roughly equal work experience.  But to give you an idea, she teaches middle school and her average class size is 35 students.  A few bad apples spoil the bunch they say...  Some kids want to learn but others are constantly disruptive and there is nothing she can do.  There is no detention at her school, and virtually no consequences.  There is sometimes a behavior room kids can be sent to, but the school is short staffed so it was often unavailable.  The only real punishments handed out are suspensions, and those seem random and somewhat arbitrary.  A kid wants to scream and hollar at you, oh well.  They want to fight in class or won't stop watching videoes on their phone... OK, kick them out... to where?  The office, they just send them back and then call and berate you for sending them in the first place.  (nevermind the fact that nobody in the office will ever answer the phone when you call for help). Kids wander the hall at will and frequently vape and have sexual relations in the bathrooms.  There aren't enough adults there to stop them.  

So, kids are disrupting your class.  Not much you can do, no lesson that hour, but your job performance is rated on how much standardized test scores improve so you have to teach them something, sometime, somehow.  Call their parents.  If they answer, maybe they say they'll talk to their kid, maybe they cuss you out for having the audacity to call.  My wife had a parent call the school and literally threaten her life once.

Another anecdote that I thought was alarming and outrageous:  A male teacher was escorted off campus in the middle of the day as a crowd of kids cheered.  There was an "allegation" made by a female student. He got to return to work a couple weeks later after it was discovered the girl was just mad because he took her phone away or some crap.  I suppose he is lucky he was merely slandered and humiliated and it didn't go further.

Another one I find somewhat funny (but I'm aweful):  A kid bit a teacher on the boob so hard she has a scar.

For me, NO THANKS.

 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 7:38 p.m.

In reply to Steve_Jones :

And now we're back to the premise of this thread which is.... 

 

the free market is providing better opportunities for teachers and therefor they are leaving in droves. 

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
6/23/22 8:21 p.m.

We aren't going to have no teachers. In areas where pay is the issue, pay will rise as teachers leave in order to rebuild the staff. Smarter districts will do that before teachers leave. In areas where other issues are driving away teachers, they will either fix the issues or pay more to up teacher's tolerance levels. That's pretty much where California is at. Here is an interesting article comparing teaching conditions of each state...

Best States For Teachers

 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/23/22 8:52 p.m.

Agreed.  But teacher salary raises have drastically underperformed the regular labor market.  Hence why my sister in law is nearly always on strike. 

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
6/23/22 8:57 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) :

Yup. I agree. 
 

And when people vote with their feet, problems usually get solved.  I'm all for it. 
 

But this is not a financial problem. Very few teachers who are leaving would choose to stay if offered substantial pay increases (without other changes).

EVERY industry is short staffed right now. And it's gonna get a LOT worse. 

I agree that most teachers aren't leaving because of lack of pay (although it certainly doesn't help) but it is certainly hard to get people to go to school to become a teacher when the pay is bad.

MiniDave
MiniDave New Reader
6/23/22 11:53 p.m.

Violence was not allowed at our school, if we had a student who was disruptive or causing issues, we called the campus police and they were there in minutes and escorted him/her off the campus - permanently. They were fully armed and came in at least pairs.....

I had one student who clearly had issues at home and personally, and I tried to be sympathetic and help him but I have no training in that area, so I suggested he go see the school counselors who would help him. He refused so I told him if he disrupted my class one more time I would have him removed. He did, and I did.

Later that day  another teacher confided that he had been a problem in his class that day too and was afraid of him. I wasn't happy about it but as Spock said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."

We had active shooter drills and one day we got the call to lockdown our rooms......the perp turned out to have an umbrella under their arm......but better safe I guess.

I had a mother call me one day and ask if her sone had been attending classes (he was on a grant and would lose it if he didn't) I was fascinated to find out that I was not allowed to discuss her son's attendance, or his grades with her unless I had written permission from the student!

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