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z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/19 12:35 p.m.
dculberson said:
z31maniac said:

OUCH. For my girlfriend and I, I pay around $175/month for health/vision/dental. And it's excellent. 

Her RA meds and doc visits only end up using about what the company puts in the HSA every year.

I'm betting your employer kicks in a ton of money for you to get that premium. I'm self employed, so shop on overall cost not just the employee's share, and it all comes out of my pocket directly. A (I'm sure larger) share comes directly out of your employer's pocket, but indirectly out of yours as it's still a cost for them of employing you.

Oh yeah, I know that on my end. I didn't realize you were self-employed. I looked it up one time, I think just for me I pay $40/month for health/vision/dental and they pay the other $380 or so? And I pay $135/month for my girlfriend and they pick up the rest.

Which is great because her last few jobs she hasn't had insurance available. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/5/19 12:49 p.m.
dculberson said:

I pay $1,370/mo for health insurance for my family. That's me, my wife, and two small kids. That's way more than 10% of my gross pay, and I also still have to pay into Medicare and SS of course! Add in federal, state, and city taxes, and the average Canadian tax burden of 30.7 percent is sounding pretty dang good to me.

Don't get me wrong, we can afford it and I'm happy living here, but I don't delude myself into thinking there's no better way of doing things.

Have you seen the actual numbers of where we are health wise?  You'd think that paying more than twice what other industrial nations do our health standings would be the best in the world.  
We aren't!  Not even close!  Something like 23rd on Infant death numbers and even what we are good at( certain kinds of cancer)  we aren't the best. 
 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/5/19 12:52 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Look into the actual statistics on infant mortality. Due to reporting differences we are actually much closer to the top of the list, but our infant mortality stats report worse vs the rest of the world because our criteria differ. 

mtn
mtn MegaDork
12/5/19 1:02 p.m.
Duke said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Look into the actual statistics on infant mortality. Due to reporting differences we are actually much closer to the top of the list, but our infant mortality stats report worse vs the rest of the world because our criteria differ. 

Are you sure on that? I think that the US still has relatively poor numbers when that is accounted for (i.e. when you look only at 22 weeks + gestation and a minimum birth weight)

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/5/19 1:14 p.m.

Did you skip over the fact that we pay more than twice what the next closest country does and yet we aren't number 1?  
Heck we can discuss details until the cows come home but more American infants dying  should be our focus.  
How much would it cost to put America back to the best in the world?  Can you Afford to spend that much?   
 

What are the countries that are better than America for less money doing?  Why can't we do that?  


My brother the doctor tells me he earns more money than his British or French counter part do but once he pays his personal liability insurance they are pretty close to even. 

He's glad he's not a French Doctor.  There when a person is sick the Doctor and Nurse go to the patient, rather than a sick person has to go to the Doctor's office.  
The French Health numbers are better because the Doctor can look at where the patient lives and see if that may be a contributing cause. 
 

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
12/5/19 3:39 p.m.

Our healthcare costs more because our taxes are less.  Which would you rather have?  This stuff isn't free, the money comes from somewhere.

Healthcare costs have gone up because the MBA's have figured out they can make money in the healthcare industry.  There are far more administrative people now then there ever were before and they make good money, with nowhere near the debt load or time spent compared to the Doc's.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/5/19 3:58 p.m.
docwyte said:

Our healthcare costs more because our taxes are less.  Which would you rather have?  This stuff isn't free, the money comes from somewhere.

Healthcare costs have gone up because the MBA's have figured out they can make money in the healthcare industry.  There are far more administrative people now then there ever were before and they make good money, with nowhere near the debt load or time spent compared to the Doc's.

Does it matter what we call it?  Costs are costs whatever we call them. Taxes, fees, deductions, etc etc etc. 

With regard administrative costs, some of that is due  how insurance companies deal with certifications and compliance.  It's long been the practice that insurance companies to hire Doctor's and former regulators to ease approval of a desired outcome.  
fancy offices with expensive decore is normal as is use of company planes and often a VP in charge of tittle.  Not to mention a hefty income plus stock options etc.  

After all that is legitimate costs that are fully deductible from income taxes.  Not to mention that their profit is based on cost not on efficiency.  

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/19 4:02 p.m.
docwyte said:

Our healthcare costs more because our taxes are less.  Which would you rather have?  This stuff isn't free, the money comes from somewhere.

Healthcare costs have gone up because the MBA's have figured out they can make money in the healthcare industry.  There are far more administrative people now then there ever were before and they make good money, with nowhere near the debt load or time spent compared to the Doc's.

That's the part that should really bother people.  You pay a company money, they keep some for profits, some for processing fees, then tell you how you are allowed to use it or not.

These companies don't actually supply a service like repairing your health- just tell you how your healtcare payments can be used.

Does that seem right?  Legalized money laundering for a service all of us really need, with proft as the goal.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
12/5/19 4:10 p.m.
alfadriver said:
docwyte said:

Our healthcare costs more because our taxes are less.  Which would you rather have?  This stuff isn't free, the money comes from somewhere.

Healthcare costs have gone up because the MBA's have figured out they can make money in the healthcare industry.  There are far more administrative people now then there ever were before and they make good money, with nowhere near the debt load or time spent compared to the Doc's.

That's the part that should really bother people.  You pay a company money, they keep some for profits, some for processing fees, then tell you how you are allowed to use it or not.

These companies don't actually supply a service like repairing your health- just tell you how your healtcare payments can be used.

Does that seem right?  Legalized money laundering for a service all of us really need, with proft as the goal.

Huge plus one. Health insurance, or any insurance, makes sense. But this has gone beyond insurance. 

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/5/19 5:46 p.m.
frenchyd said:

What are the countries that are better than America for less money doing?  Why can't we do that? 

What most of them are doing is using drugs, techniques, and technologies developed and vetted in the US at our expense.

So, there's that.

 

Wayslow
Wayslow Dork
12/5/19 6:04 p.m.

In reply to Duke :

Actually the US is steadily losing ground to Europe and Asia for medical research and innovation.Apparently the main reason for this is the reluctance of private industry to pay for the basic research, preferring to invest once it starts to promise a return on investment. Not an unreasonable stance for a private company to take.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
12/5/19 6:37 p.m.

Yes, but that has been going on for a long time.  The initial research is done in universities (many times with government grants), the researchers then branch out and start a small startup company to do further development.  If any of that development shows promise (trials results etc.) the small company will be scooped up by a larger one (for big money sometimes) and they will continue the development, marketing and sales.

Larger companies historically have done research, but most are finding it more economically safe to just buy up startups.  I suspect some of this is the result of more competition in the area and it not being as "easy" anymore.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/5/19 7:26 p.m.
Duke said:
frenchyd said:

What are the countries that are better than America for less money doing?  Why can't we do that? 

What most of them are doing is using drugs, techniques, and technologies developed and vetted in the US at our expense.

So, there's that.

 

Wow,  I'm trying to work with you but you have to meet me 1/2 way.  
I hope you don't believe that only Americans are smart and hard working.  There are medical laboratories all over the world. Much of true development work is done overseas because other countries have different laws than America where a mistake can cost a company major money due to legal action. Getting drug testers is expensive here in America but some countries 2 or three dollars means the family can eat for a while. 
It's not only that but China has 1 billion 400 million people. And almost next door is India with 1 billion 100 million people. Many of them have advanced degrees and are leading experts in the field. 
My  HMO offers paid travel to India where their hospital is the worlds leading experts on certain medical procedures. 
Going there you have a better chance of success than any American hospital. They pay all expenses including 1st class hotel accommodations for you and your partner.  Plus give you $6500 as incentive for a week of your time.  

It's not charity, they save several times that by having work done there.  My Late wife had used that HMO for 40+ years. Very progressive. 
 

My point is please don't be so provincial it's a big world and changing all the time.  If you travel globally you'll soon realize how backwards parts of America is.  

Curtis
Curtis UltimaDork
12/5/19 9:00 p.m.
Duke said:
frenchyd said:

What are the countries that are better than America for less money doing?  Why can't we do that? 

What most of them are doing is using drugs, techniques, and technologies developed and vetted in the US at our expense.

So, there's that.

 

Two things... 1) if that's true, why are we paying welfare for these countries to live off of our paycheck?  We pay through the nose so that the world can have all the benefits?  But for sure we shouldn't take care of our own low income citizens.  (being a douchy, sarcastic anus laugh)         2) it really isn't true.  The water is really muddy.  It could be more of our money going into the international pharma companies, but we don't hold the trophy for medical innovation.  Europe and Asia are surpassing us.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/5/19 9:48 p.m.

They are starting to surpass us NOW. After decades of the US being an industry leader and effectively subsidizing all of these socialist paradises you folks are so in love with. 
 

tester
tester Reader
12/5/19 10:16 p.m.

How about a little personal experience? 

A close family friend decided that living Europe during retirement would be the cats meow. It was cheap. It was the adventure of a lifetime. Safe. Great health care. They would bounce around the European Union and then out to one of the non member countries every few months to meet the appropriate visa requirements. After a few months they came home to states. Why? Did they not like France or Italy? Was Greece not her thing? Nope. She had an ingrown toenail and could not find a doctor she liked. Seriously, she couldn't find a podiatrist that she felt comfortable with hacking on her toe.  

People actually believe statistics out of China or India? Wowzer. I have a bridge in Brooklin  for sale.  Fyi - about 70 to 80% of US citizens have health coverage. Only 25% of India has access to medical care at all. Let that sink in for a moment. A poor person, homeless even, can walk into an ER in the US and they will receive treatment. They might even be hospitalized for months waiting on a good discharge situation. Seriously, this happens everyday. The uninsured and indigent often receive better care than someone with a good home and family structure in the US.  I will repeat only 25% of India's population has access to healthcare of any kind.  Apples and potatoes to even compare them. 
 


Back to the more personal side of the discussion...

Now for my positive health experience in Europe. They walk a lot. That is it. Seriously, that is the difference. 10k to 20k steps per day is normal. That will fix 90% of what is wrong with the US. They are thinner than the US. Did I mention walking? 
 

Now for the big European negative, everybody smokes. That should show up in their cancer rates.  Another observation on European health statistics, I used to wonder how VW could build a great little Diesel engine that met every requirement while GM,  Ford and even Toyota seemed unable to bring anything to market.  I would suggest a healthy grain of salt with anything that seems too good to be true.  A side note, about 25% of Doctors in France are not part of the national system. Take a guess which Doc you really want to see; the free one or the one the rich folks pay to see? Who do you want hacking on your toe? Yep. That is it in a nutshell. 
 

 

 


 

 

Curtis
Curtis UltimaDork
12/5/19 10:24 p.m.

Actually, all the countries to which I was referring are democracies.

You do realize we're being bested by Uruguay in civil liberties, free healthcare, and democracy index, right?  A tiny South American country in which the biggest export is outsourced customer service for software can do it but we can't?

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
12/5/19 10:26 p.m.

Ever think about why our industry lead is getting cut due to competition from other markets?
 

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UltimaDork
12/5/19 10:32 p.m.
tester said:

The uninsured and indigent often receive better care than someone with a good home and family structure in the US.  
 


Ever think about how the indigent pay for that health care? They don't. Others do. If you want to call single payer healthcare socialism, you kind of have to call that sort of medical treatment socialism, too.

 

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
12/5/19 10:51 p.m.

Based on this thread I think we may finally get a P&R section.  Let the bloodbath begin!!

 

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
12/5/19 11:38 p.m.
Duke said:

They are starting to surpass us NOW. After decades of the US being an industry leader and effectively subsidizing all of these socialist paradises you folks are so in love with. 
 

You know it's possible to disagree with someone without being dismissive and rude right? Sometimes it's important to remind yourself that the people you're talking to are reasonable and have likely reasoned their way into a position you disagree with. There's no reason to belittle their position by claiming they're "in love" with a "socialist paradise."

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/6/19 6:31 a.m.
Duke said:
frenchyd said:

What are the countries that are better than America for less money doing?  Why can't we do that? 

What most of them are doing is using drugs, techniques, and technologies developed and vetted in the US at our expense.

So, there's that.

 

The same large companies that get massive tax breaks and huge government grants, you mean.  because they do.  You are so worried about socialism you miss the corporate welfare that goes on, at our health's expense.  (let alone dollars)  This to feed a for profit industry that just lauders my money and tells me how to spend it.  Forgive me for thinking that's a pretty crappy set up.

Our doctors may be some of the best, but there are also some of the worst and most corrupt.  But the real fault of our system is the filter between us, the paitents, and them, the doctors- that's the key problem.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/6/19 7:02 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

If you've ever read a single one of my political-economic posts, you'll know that I am absolutely AGAINST corporate subsidies, tax breaks, and bailouts. 
 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/6/19 7:33 a.m.
Duke said:

In reply to alfadriver :

If you've ever read a single one of my political-economic posts, you'll know that I am absolutely AGAINST corporate subsidies, tax breaks, and bailouts. 
 

Yet you ignore that part of what is going on in this case.  The healthcare industry didn't become so profitable laundering our money by accident.

Doctors, nurses, tech's, and researchers are the ones who should be getting our healthcare dollars, not vice presidents, CEO's and shareholders.  They provide zero service to the public other than taking our money.  Not everything in our society needs to be a revenue and money making obsession, at least on a corporate level.  I'm fine if the most talented doctors who save a lot of lives in their work (however it's presented) get big $$.  I'm not for people who tell me how I can't spend my dollars.

And that's why this segment of our society is a good one for socialism.  We ALL have to use it at some time, and the providers take an oath to make sure they help people.  We all are born, we all get sick, we will all die.  Why can't we all share in the burden of taking care of everyone?

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
12/6/19 7:38 a.m.

In reply to Duke :

So you're suggesting going full Randian libertarian ?

That's how we have a repeat of the 1890s-1920s and what's happening in the CA Bay area now. Those systems only ever benefit those with money.

Greater economic mobility relies on a system being in place which has controls to prevent those with great wealth from pulling up the ladder behind them.

I don't have a problem with people becoming wealthy, I have an issue with economic serfdom. Healthcare, or lack of availability to those who have trouble affording it, is one of the major contributors to that issue.

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