Speaking of Residential Construction - Permits, Permit Drawings, and Contractor Holdups

I've got a few different projects scheduled around the house, a bathroom remodel (not moving plumbing), a deck (56" off the ground), and, like Curtis, a fireplace I'd like to move/redesign. 

All technically require a permit with local city. 

The problem I've found is that it's not permit cost or wait that is difficult - it's the drawings. They want you to call out every piece of building code, plumbing code, etc. They want to see details of this and that. It's no-wonder many DIYers just skip the permit process altogether. My neighbor has been remodeling his entire house, moving plumbing, electrical, removing walls, the whole shebang, and no permits - for this reason. It take as long to create drawings/plans as it does actually doing the construction! 

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the reason behind building permits and construction inspection. I worked as a permit tech and subdivision plan reviewer, although I never did construction plan review (that was done by the inspectors). I'd be totally willing to lose money and time to have a building inspector review my work at various stages of construction and say "yea, you didn't do that right, do it like this and call me when its fixed." That makes total sense - I don't want to burn down my house or kill its current or subsequent inhabitants. I can't help but feel however, that this prevents a lot of people from either remodeling their homes despite having the construction skills to do so, or avoiding permiting and inspection, and potentially creating unsafe situations. 

Rather than saying "here's how you'll need to build a deck to be safe" they say "show us how you'd build a deck to be safe and we'll critique anything that doesn't pass muster." My construction/contractor buddies know this all too well. One friend says he won't do jobs that either A) require a permit or B) the client doesn't already have a permit/plans approved because as he put it, "nobody wants to pay me $30/hr for a day to draw up plans, I'm just here to swing the hammer."

Which made me wonder - are there services where people will basically draft up building plans for permits that aren't full blown engineers/architects? They are just "residential construction drafting services"? Like, $200 for a deck plans that would pass even the most stringent of local plans reviewers? (Decks.com has a nice free designer application, but it doesn't meet the muster of my local building permit reviewers.) Or $200 for a bathroom remodel drawing with all little notes saying "will meet or exceed this plumbing code requirement blah blah blah?" 

Maybe I'm over complicating it, but is it really this difficult?
 

In reply to pheller :

It's difficult because despite their being national and international codes, it seems like every municipality can pick and choose what they want to use as a base, or what to enforce. Even inspectors seem to vary by the time of day and amount of blood in their coffee stream with what they're looking for or want to enforce. 

Honestly when we were doing commercial buildings on the side of a major highway, we didn't get permits for anything until we were ready for occupancy because even with penalties, it was cheaper and easier to hire QUALITY contractors and just build it than to jump through the townships hoops, setup by people that don't know which end of the hammer to hold. 

Then there are the weird places too. City of Greensburg wants you to hire a township approved plumber and get permits to replace a water heater or change your sink faucet, while a mile down the road, Unity township would ask why you were applying for a permit if you weren't breaking ground on a brand new structure. 

When an inspector butted his nose into my customer's condo that i was just slapping some cabinets in and told me i needed a cabinet permit and the customer needed a flooring permit and an electrical permit for box extensions because she was tiling her backsplashes, I decided I wasn't dealing with all the different municipalities and their stupid rules unless it was a project visible from the outside.  

Patrick (Forum Supporter) said:

When an inspector butted his nose into my customer's condo that i was just slapping some cabinets in and told me i needed a cabinet permit and the customer needed a flooring permit 

That frankly sounds like a fleece. I might be able to stretch and see that yea, cabinets with hundred of pounds of weight hanging from a high kitchen wall not attached property could potentially be a safety issue...but flooring? 

What's the worst that could happen, someone get a splinter? 

It's more than just the plans being code compliant.  It sounds like they would want them signed and sealed by licensed architects and engineers.  

What you are asking for is basically what I do for a living for electrical systems.  What they are asking for is actually common and generally called a "code extract" drawing. We typically do one for every project we have to pull permits for, no matter how large or small the scope is.  It tends to be somewhat standardized, so it's not difficult for an A&E firm to put together as part of a drawing package.

I'm not sure I have an answer for you that you want to hear, but this is basically why Architect and Engineering firms exist.  Partly to create scope/bid document drawings for the contractors and and partly for permit submission.

Here are a couple thoughts on permits: 

1. The goal of a permit is to hold a contractor to a standard. If you live in a city, and pay a professional for some work, but the professional doesn't do the work, the permit is there to hold them accountable. Much like a patent, it is really only worth what you are willing to enforce in this regard.

2. Remember that permit offices get probably 100 idiots coming in daily and 'dreaming' about renovations they will never do, for every 1 actual permit they issue. They are likely to treat you like the dreaming idiot until you prove to them you're the 1 actually serious person. 

3. Every profession has good and bad people. 

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Not sure everywhere else, but in Florida it is also a way to up your home yearly taxes via adjusted home valuation. The permit has to have the cost of the remodel or whatever is being done on it. New 10k fence? Thats 10k more your home is taxed. 

If its a new pool or something major, I would get a permit, otherwise it depends. 

Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Not sure everywhere else, but in Florida it is also a way to up your home yearly taxes via adjusted home valuation. The permit has to have the cost of the remodel or whatever is being done on it. New 10k fence? Thats 10k more your home is taxed. 

If its a new pool or something major, I would get a permit, otherwise it depends. 

I'm not sure that's exactly correct, and definitely not the way it works here. We do have to include the total cost of the renovation on permits here. And the price of the permit is based on that number. However, home values are set by the assessor's office (an entirely different office of government - at an entirely different level - county vs city/village). The assessments are based on lot size and type of buildings and sqft of buildings basically. The assessments may have small adjustment factors for 'quality of building' but the main drivers are size. Also, you can annually appeal your assessment if you think it is too high, and show comps in the area that are lower and you can get your assessment lowered.

I'd be very surprised if your permit issuing agency is the same as your assessing agency. 

RevRico said:

In reply to pheller :

Honestly when we were doing commercial buildings on the side of a major highway, we didn't get permits for anything until we were ready for occupancy because even with penalties, it was cheaper and easier to hire QUALITY contractors and just build it than to jump through the townships hoops, setup by people that don't know which end of the hammer to hold.

So... I'm guessing they never heard of footing inspections? Rough-in inspections?  Inspections for anything that can't be seen through the paint?

The whole permitting process is meant to protect the homeowner and future buyers of said properties.  I get it completely.

Some jurisdictions turn it into a income stream.  :(  You know them when they issue the permit, but never follow up with an inspection.

Bypassing permitting only works out well as long as the people do the work do follow the codes.  And there lies the rub.

That said, I know a guy in our community that is booked solid for years doing all sorts of remodels, etc. permit free (pirate).   He saves clients usually 50%, but does everything to code and has strict standards.  He is in high demand.  He told me last week he had just finished a job for a family for $4K that they had three bids for, the lowest being $13.5K.  I think he is the exception to the rule.  Most of the pirates don't know what they are doing, and buyers end up with a mess, sometimes even an unsafe mess.

If you don't know your diamonds, you better know your jeweler.   YMMV

In reply to Duke :

Township never came through for any of it. Not even when we had to fill a hole where we had to dig out shale. 110 yards of concrete to fill the hole in the corner of a footer that was only 90 yards. Hell, OSHA never came through for anything and we were literally on the side of the highway. Heavy equipment, massive amounts of land movement, whether Johnny was paying everybody off to stay away or we lucked out for years on end, I'll never know. Johnny is dead, his second in command is dead, but the buildings are still there, still occupied. Not many people left for anyone to go after more that I think about it, me, who was a cash employee and underage, the Secretary, and we'll I guess the concrete and equipment operators are still around, but they're close to retiring.

That particular municipality hasn't had a fire inspector in the last 14 years because they can't find one that will work for minimum wage. Doesn't stop them from demanding fire suppression, but they don't have anyone to enforce it, test it, or put a name on it. 

At the same time, heaven help you if you want to build an addition or a shed in Hempfield township and don't own at least 5 acres. Permit prices, regulations out the ass, just horrible, it's like living in a massive HOA.

Similar could be said for city of Pittsburgh too. I could drive you through in an afternoon and show you literally hundreds of buildings that aren't legally allowed to be open because of the fire suppression systems, that no one seems to care about. City of Pittsburgh has an inspector, but none of the fire suppression companies ever actually finish a job because of the owners. But that's an entirely different conversation.

In reply to pheller :

My city is one of those everything needs plans and an engineers sign off etc etc etc.  it's not uncommon for months and months to go by while schedules and requirements work there way through  the process only to be sent back for clarification, certification, or outright refusal.  
It took me more Than 20 years to get my building permit  

I ran for Mayor  ( cost me $2 ) and came in 2nd place.  The next day I was called in and asked if I still wanted my permit?    30 minutes later I was handed back a sketch with sizes listed and set backs noted on a sheet of yellow legal paper they gave me,  fee paid,  and building permit stamped.  

Want a permit for something?  Run for office 
 

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Not sure everywhere else, but in Florida it is also a way to up your home yearly taxes via adjusted home valuation. The permit has to have the cost of the remodel or whatever is being done on it. New 10k fence? Thats 10k more your home is taxed. 

If its a new pool or something major, I would get a permit, otherwise it depends. 

I'm not sure that's exactly correct, and definitely not the way it works here. We do have to include the total cost of the renovation on permits here. And the price of the permit is based on that number. However, home values are set by the assessor's office (an entirely different office of government - at an entirely different level - county vs city/village). The assessments are based on lot size and type of buildings and sqft of buildings basically. The assessments may have small adjustment factors for 'quality of building' but the main drivers are size. Also, you can annually appeal your assessment if you think it is too high, and show comps in the area that are lower and you can get your assessment lowered.

I'd be very surprised if your permit issuing agency is the same as your assessing agency. 

 

Again, I am not sure how it works anywhere else but only in Florida. 

When I had my pool built the cost was $70k, my property taxes went up accordingly and the tax assessor showed the pool right away.

Seems that Florida is not the only one, look here:

Article

If its a small amount, then you might not notice. Also Florida taxes houses at around 2% of value ... $70k moved mine by about $1500 which was noticeable at the end of the year. 

I also know about appeals. At one point they knew me by first name at the appeals office, lol.

Honesty moment... 

Call your local home improvement store.  Instead of hiring a fleet of code-knowledgeable experts, they hire people who know the difference between a nail and a screw and teach them how to use software that designs things to code compliance.

That won't work for your fireplace or bathroom, but certainly for the deck.  They put in your deck, it's elevation, and other parameters, and it spits out pretty 3D pictures and a list of materials you need to make it happen.

The one I used when I worked at HD was not area-specific.  Every store had the same software, so it complied with the most rigid rules there are.  So unless you live somewhere like southern CA with additional earthquake things, or Gulf coast with Hurricane code stuff, you should be good to go.  If they require an engineer's stamp, that won't work, but at least it's a way to get one step shy of blueprints that you know will comply.  I was experienced enough that I often skipped the software and just put a package together in my head, but find someone who will sit down and actually do the software part and make you designs.

In my fireplace permit thread, the pictures I posted were the same exact pictures I submitted to the permit office.  I found all the UL and IRC jargon I needed and included it in all the labels and it passed.  I'm a highly experienced builder... for theater.  I can build anything.  Building it to code is way beyond me.

frenchyd said:

It took me more Than 20 years to get my building permit  

From what you've told us about your design process and documentation, I'm hardly surprised.