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stroker
stroker PowerDork
11/29/22 4:15 p.m.

YouTube is full of "men's rights"/delusional women videos ranging from genuinely thoughtful analysis of the current culture men aged 18-50 are facing to juvenile misogynist screeds full of schadenfreude.   As I'm in my mid-60's I'm all past that, but I was wondering where The Hive fell on pair bonding these days...  Are younger guys genuinely disillusioned, or is this a case of YT yabbos blowing an anthill into a mountain to get clicks? 

Opinions?

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/29/22 4:22 p.m.

A bunch of YT yabbos blowing up an anthill to get clicks is always a strong possibility.

I have no idea what the rest of it means, as I generally stay away from YT yabbos :)

Stampie
Stampie MegaDork
11/29/22 4:24 p.m.

In reply to stroker :

Want to have some real fun?  Watch one innocent video and then let YouTube play their suggested videos after that. Let it sit for 24 hours. You'll eat up with some weird off the wall E36 M3. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
11/29/22 4:30 p.m.

The MRA crowd is one of those loud minorities trying to make the issue seem far larger than it really is, and YouTube loves to send people down rabbit-holes so once you've watched one video on a new topic, it will keep feeding you more, and it seems to be extra persistent if it's anything remotely political in nature. MRA/MGTOW ideology is also a fast-rising cause of terrorism in the first world...

Noddaz
Noddaz PowerDork
11/29/22 4:31 p.m.

There is stuff besides car, gun and slot car videos on You-Tube (The *New* Boob Tube)?

Who would have thought.

ShawnG
ShawnG MegaDork
11/29/22 4:33 p.m.

I think we can blame the algorithms for some of the behavior. 

If all you see is the same viewpoint repeated over and over, it's only going to reinforce what you've been looking at.

Maybe the first things the algorithm shows you should be completely different than what you've been watching.

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
11/29/22 4:38 p.m.

I'd just be happy if the algorithm didn't suggest the same 12 videos under 100 different labels. 

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UltimaDork
11/29/22 4:51 p.m.

Whats that phrase?  "Every story has a kernel of truth" or something?

 

MRA folk are very loud and very angry and very visible.  To me it is an overblown issue on almost all fronts except for one and thats not even something that is unique to young men, old men, or any in between.  Mental health in this country is a travesty.

My favorite example of a stopped clock being right is Milo Yianananaopopulus discussing the rates at which young men commit suicide.  The rest of what he discusses in that clip is just... I dunno, but that is something worth talking about. 

Young boys and young girls cry at about the same rate till adolescence.  At that point researchers think that hormones take over and testosterone limits boys from crying and estrogen encourages girls to cry but I don't know that I've seen anything concrete on that.  Is it a chemical thing in their bodies? Is it a nurture thing?

There have been no mass shootings from women this year.

Older men get isolated as their friendships fall away (I'm starting to see the beginning of this and am railing against it hard, but it is difficult.)

 

There are issues there, but whether or not they are specific to one half of the human population or whether the inherent characteristics within that half of the population lead to different expressions of that same issue, I dunno.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/29/22 5:05 p.m.

A lot of YouTube is click-bait to get views...  

Much like my Facebook feed, I follow such a wild variety of content (from gun-tubers to far, far-left, vegan female vanlifers), "the algorithm" seems to be confused by what to show me.  I also subscribe to so many channels that just keeping up with the latest posts keeps me busier than I should be.

Are younger men disillusioned?  Possibly. Probably. Men with too much time on their hands to ponder life can have unpredictable results.  I'm 52 and I'm pretty damn disillusioned... 

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
11/29/22 5:08 p.m.
stroker said:

YouTube is full of "men's rights"/delusional women videos ranging from genuinely thoughtful analysis of the current culture men aged 18-50 are facing to juvenile misogynist screeds full of schadenfreude. ...

I think what most of the posts above are basically saying it:

"Dude!  What kind of videos are you watching that you are getting those suggested to you?".

I have to admit, I get paranoid when I see something that looks somewhat interesting (which of course, many times it isn't) and worry what will be presented to me next if I do.  I had a friend who looked at a piercing video and was a bit distraught by what his suggested videos looked like after that.  I suggested the below:

Quick hint:  You can remove things from your History (menu on left in the browser version) and that should (?) remove it from consideration for suggested videos.

On mobile (at least iPad), History should be the first item in the Library section (menu/area?)

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
11/29/22 5:15 p.m.

In reply to aircooled :

To add on to what you're saying, on a laptop or computer, possibly in a mobile device in desktop mode, if you click the three dots on a video (or maybe the channel itself) you can block entire channels. 

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
11/29/22 5:27 p.m.

In reply to stroker :

As a young man whos watched all this unfold...

Everyone so far in comment, is basically right. Mr_Asa correctly brought up that there's truth to some claims (Men's suicide rates are like, 3-4 times womens and we have few to no resources if we're being abused) but the whole manosphere is very much a predatory universe. All of them are selling the ideal of confidence and success- see their marketplaces and patreon deals lmao- but wrap it all up and sell it in typical methods and numbered goals. Their targets are always doing everything wrong, are never hard enough, and are always told in a super authoritative tone. It's always an easy forumla to improve- just go 2 gym! Get money! Look important! Be aloof! They're all these very easy things that don't demand emotional stability or reflection- they're just easy numbers you can hit on the cable pull-down. All of this is intentional because these young men who aren't seeing success in dating or relationships (or have never had one) don't yet understand that all dating is all hard and demands time and failure in particular. Who would a young man rather listen to? A guy telling him in a calm nice tone, that you're just gonna have to fail repeatedly at dating to make it worthwhile? Or a dude who's forearms are so shredded he's got garden hoses for veins telling him that women don't want any man who can't bench 225?

Also to Mr_Asa, it's an issue of nuture, I've worked with many men who were told that men don't cry. Testosterone is the aggression hormone, which is why us young men have the highest rates for spinal injuries. We're #1 again babey!

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/29/22 6:06 p.m.

One thing that plagues our society in general and youths in particular is rampant negativity bias. I know a 23-year-old kid who drives a BMW, eats a lot of Sushi and other expensive foods,  wears expensive clothing and is not expected to work as he navigates a very light class load in college..... And he's convinced that his generation has been f----d over by the boomers. 

All over the place we are being assailed by how terrible things are, how bad the "others" are, how much better our forefathers had it, blah, blah, blah. 

Most of us have it very good compared to 99 percent of history and 80 percent of the current world. We need to be more aware of this.

Honestly, it's real hard for me not to go off on MRA, calling them whiners and such. There is some truth to what they say. I just can't get aboard when their sense of grievances runs so deep that it becomes the defining feature of their worldview.  Sorry bro - there are aspects of society that are stacked against you, but there are also a lot that favors you.   

 

j_tso
j_tso HalfDork
11/29/22 6:21 p.m.

Anyone who wants to face a camera ranting and yelling for a solid half hour is just looking for attention.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia UltraDork
11/29/22 6:22 p.m.

Is there a way to "reboot" Facebook, Instagram , TikTok and all the other  algorithm  based sites so you can start over ?
 

if I was looking for a Pumpkin pie I will get Pumpkin stuff for days,  etc etc 

I would love a button that says STOP sending me info on Pumpkin etc

.....now get off my lawn !

 

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/29/22 6:30 p.m.
j_tso said:

Anyone who wants to face a camera ranting and yelling for a solid half hour is just looking for attention.

In the old days crazy people would rant from streetcorners and we'd all avoid them. Now that same guy posts to Youtube and with 2.1 billion monthly viewers all it takes is a tiny percentage to tune in and instead of the fool on the hill he's an internet sensation! 

Error404
Error404 HalfDork
11/29/22 6:55 p.m.

There's a lot of algorithm-blame to go around, I was listening to a podcast from NYT diving into the radicalisation that prompted YT to change their algorithm (as much as I'm going to say on that) and there has definitely been investigative journalism discussing the effects of irresponsible algorithms. Also, the internet being the internet and amplifying voices. And creating echo chambers. There are also a lot of conversations happening in socially progressive circles about toxic masculinity/femininity and MRA-related subjects overlap in some areas. Toxic masculinity/femininity can often be younger people slang for "some social norms around gender roles aren't cool", like reinforcing the social pressure about real men not crying or stay-at-home dads being lazy. The kicker, IMO, is when you take all of this and mix it all up, toss a lime in that coconut, and shake it all up with boys/men feeling aggrieved without a constructive outlet and.... tada! Then there's spectrums, people exploiting these individuals for personal gain, and just generally people preying on the vulnerable.

As for negativity bias, all the aforementioned "toxic" behavior also includes a lot of pressure to have certain things and milestones with the obvious comparisons being age-group friends and family members, like parents. It's all a sticky ball of baggage that is being talked about openly, publicly, and generationally instead of being confined to more academic circles like it has been in the past. That is to say, a lot of this isn't new but it has never reached this level of visibility in the public eye. Or at least, that's my thinking.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse UltimaDork
11/29/22 7:27 p.m.

A lot of us come here to GRM to find and engage with others of us that are into the passion of automobiles, particularly motorsport. 

There are others who get on social media to find people with other interests. 

The thing that all of us have in common is that this social media thing makes everything seem larger than it really is. People get trapped in their bubbles. I have a friend whose wife writes articles for sewing groups. We were chatting one night and he reflected, you know, how us car guys have our own world, and it seems huge to us.  That's our bubble. But, he said that sewing bubble has probably a hundred fold more members in it- and yet, I couldn't name you one person there. That's completely outside of my bubble. 

Everyone would, I think, do well to realize this phenomenon in social media. 

As far as dating goes, social media has definitely influenced it greatly over the past 20 years. I was dating when "online ads" were in their infancy, and it was still socially taboo to say you met someone online. I still consider that part of the reason Mrs. VCH and I have such a good relationship is that it happened naturally- we worked together, started off as acquaintances, and built up to where we are today. It took years, and work. It took decades of meeting and dating and breaking up with people, being single and not, etc.  

Marriage isn't for everyone, but it is a socially valuable construct that both men and women benefit from. It (in theory) promotes the successful rearing of future generations. Unfortunately, we seem to be moving towards a society where the 5 percent of men who are of dating age, unmarried, have a 6 figure + job, are above-average height, and are decently in shape are the only ones that the tic-toc generation of women are interested in.  It used to be your dating pool was pretty small. There were only just so many men and so many women you interacted with, and pretty much people got married out of that pool. Social media exploded the pool, and the 9s and 10s all gravitated to each other leaving the 4s, 5s, and 6s searching in vain for their 9 or 10 that will never come.  Then they get angry, blame someone else, and, well, you get what we have today.  

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
11/29/22 9:21 p.m.

we seem to be moving towards a society where the 5 percent of men who are of dating age, unmarried, have a 6 figure + job, are above-average height, and are decently in shape are the only ones that the tic-toc generation of women are interested in.

 

Woah there big fella! Upon what do you make that determination? Are there statistics, studies that prove it? Because you've basically called an entire generation of women shallow. And here's a thought - when Suzie smooth-hips tells you that you're inadequate, it may be a bummer, but you've also dodged a bullet.  Let's say you are a twenty-something with a tasty six-figure income and you get married to ol' Suzie. Then, five-or-ten years in you decide that you are sick of writing code and want to be a kayak guide. Who's more likely to support you in the pursuit of your dream? Suzie the Prada queen or Nancy, the  gal who loves you for your personality?  

VolvoHeretic
VolvoHeretic HalfDork
11/29/22 11:08 p.m.

There was an episode on PBS NOVA about sex where they took 20 or so average college students, 10 men and 10 women and put cards on their heads indicating their social/attraction status with 1 being lowest appeal and 10 being the highest. They had to walk around the room and interact to find a mate. It didn't take long for the individuals to learn their ranking and in one way or the another, they found their equivalent other. Funny to watch.

Edit: Ok, I don't know what channel that scene was from, History Channel, Discovery Channel, National Geographic Channel, or PBS Channel.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
11/30/22 12:35 a.m.
Stampie said:

In reply to stroker :

Want to have some real fun?  Watch one innocent video and then let YouTube play their suggested videos after that. Let it sit for 24 hours. You'll eat up with some weird off the wall E36 M3. 

I got farrier ASMR videos. Apparently I need to go to sleep watching hooves get shoed?

TJL (Forum Supporter)
TJL (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/30/22 6:48 a.m.

Other than a few "innocent" videos,  youtube(and the internet in general) is a minefield of mental abuse. Content made by people with emotional/mental damage, for people looking for  validation of their own cognitive bias's. 
 

 

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
11/30/22 7:27 a.m.

People face real issues.

You generally don't get attention online by thoughtfully weighing the nuances of complicated issues.

Men throughout time have struggled with the question of, "What do women want?" or "How do I make myself attractive to women?" I'd wager they always will. I know I did when I was younger. When I was more into social dancing (swing, blues, etc.), I know I could generally see how much more awkward and lacking confidence most college age men were/are vs. me as an experienced guy in his 30's.

I think the internet is generally unhelpful for the mental health of immature people. It makes it really easy to fall into echo chambers instead of getting tough love to force you to do something about it.

Beer Baron
Beer Baron MegaDork
11/30/22 7:42 a.m.

Sideways on the topic - something I deal with and I've seen numerous other men face. In the category of "relatively small, but real".

It seems like a lot of men have trouble sharing their mental/emotional/stress issues with their female partners. It seems like many women get stressed and anxious by their partner's stress and anxiety. They "take on" the stress of people around them, which doesn't help anyone.

I'm dealing with a lot of stuff lately, and it's hard to share with my wife.When I go to her looking for emotional support, I often end up being the one who has to provide the emotional support for both of us. So I become less inclined or guarded in how I share things.

Covid stuff has made this harder with less in-person interactions with close friends other than her. Especially since who had been my closest daily friend is the owner at the brewery who I have frustrations with that I'm turning to her for support on.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
11/30/22 7:43 a.m.

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