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Josh
Josh Reader
5/30/08 1:31 p.m.

The abbreviated quiz they give you is not the actual survey. There is evidently a component of attitudinal factors that asks questions like "Is the environment negatively impacting your health", and "Do you feel guilty about your effect on the environment". I don't think either of these conjectures are correct in most cases, nor should agreeing with them increase your "score". I also notice that Brazil, for example, gets points for the fact that only 9% of private homes are artificially heated. Of course, if we tried that in New England we'd be able to drastically lower our carbon footprint after one winter, because 91% of us would be dead. I don't see much legitimacy in this thing, and considering the source, I'm almost certain they got EXACTLY the results they designed it to.

Duke
Duke Dork
5/30/08 1:42 p.m.

India is also huge in 'grassroots' electronics recycling:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june07/e-waste_2-26.html

Nothing like burning the insulation off of wires to get the copper, cracking open CRTs to get the magnets, and boiling circuit boards in acid to retrieve the metals to make you feel happy and self-satisfied in your one-with-nature subsistence.

Lead poisoning much?

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
5/30/08 1:44 p.m.
PeteWW wrote: "The American Thinker” website ran the numbers. In the seven years between the signing of Kyoto in 1997 and 2004, here’s what happened: * Emissions worldwide increased 18.0%. * Emissions from countries that signed the treaty increased 21.1%. * Emissions from non-signers increased 10.0%. * Emissions from the U.S. increased 6.6%. Please define "environmental awareness."

(shakes head in disgust) Now, now, now. You know it's common knowledge that America is the world's biggest enemy in everything. After all, Chavez and Castro said so and so do a bunch of greenies. Let's don't be clouding the issue with real numbers.

It irks me when there are cities in Europe and Asia with stonework hundreds of years old crumbling because of the amount of acid rain and sulphuric diesel soot particles deposited from the mostly uncontrolled exhaust of their far more numerous diesel engines. Remember, that's why diesels aren't real big over here (yet), they have had a hard time with our emissions regulations. (I am currently perusing an online course in diesel particulate filter maintenance and repair, that is a necessary component to pass US emissions regulations.) Then these same folks tell us how nasty our society is because we use too much gasoline per capita.

alfadriver
alfadriver New Reader
5/30/08 2:08 p.m.

Thanks, but I'll take our air quality over Europe's any day. Whatever the CO2 argument may be, we have cleaner air.

Maybe the "green" countries goals are to off their population via bad air??? That will reduce CO2. :omg:

Thinkkker
Thinkkker SuperDork
5/30/08 2:18 p.m.
It's ok that our kids are not doing great in comparisons with other countries kids in all leading education indicators.. 1. the test was hard 2. its not fair 3. data can be made to say anything.

No, I blame this on the fact that now a teacher has to teach to one test rather than on a subject. In TX they have the TACS or whatever it is. They cannot teach around this, because if the kids do not do well on this test then they the teacher can be fired. This is all it is structured to. When I was in school they would literally stop teaching a subject once it was close to the TAAS precursor to the new test time. You just got drilled with that stuff.

I will say that yes, America seems to be a land of Gluttony. This will not change. What will more so is that the countries in Asia will grow and start driving more, getting more electric items, and just move towards what we are. The only argument is that per person we consume more than those is similar economic climates.

GlennS
GlennS Reader
5/30/08 2:19 p.m.

i dont think the survey cared much about particulate polutants in the air, rivers being filled with industrial waist, dumping garbadge into the ocean, slash and burn logging, etc.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
5/30/08 3:16 p.m.
therex wrote:
ignorant wrote: you're also failing to realize my argument is merely for arguments sake...
The Rex doesn't like trolls.

Jimmy like?

You sir are no better than me.. a reverse troll.

seann
seann New Reader
5/30/08 3:52 p.m.

I fail to see how complaining that europeans drive dirty poluting deisels is much different that them complaining that we drive too many ineffiecient SUV's. Oh and devoloping world poluting manufactureres, why do you think their goods are so damn cheap, and who is buying them. Indian recycling plants melting off wire insulations? Where do you think all that tech waste comes from. All this fingerpointing is just an attempt to skirt responsibilities by all parties involved.

The idea that "It's my money and I'll do what I want with it" is a fantasy, every thing in this world is connected via biology, chemistry, physics, economics and war. Every decision we make affects other people, they could be on the other side of this world or the other side of this century. Can we look at our lives and say we can't live with less and still be comfortable? This is all just boils down to basic golden rule E36 M3, the connections just aren't very obvious. And even further, how much of this E36 M3 is really making us happier.

I'm not trying to chastise other people and say their lives have a more negative impact than mine, because there are plenty of people that could say the same to me among other reasons. The best thing we can do is just try to live our own lives in a manor that reduces the amount of misery we cause other people, and perhaps engage in conversation with other people so that we can all better understand our impact. We're all human, the basic moral instinct is there, it's all about better understanding the consequences of our actions.

Edit: I didn't read the article, sounds like a waste of time.

Yikes! what happened to the swear filter? Sorry if I offended any one before I corrected it manually.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
5/30/08 4:36 p.m.

seann, I need to point something out: the reason all the polluting is going on in the 'emerging' economies is because Europeans (as well as us) demand cheap consumer goods. So they supply it and cut their costs by dumping crap on the ground. Meaning we export our pollution to those countries willing to cut corners so we and the Europeans can all have 40 cell phones in 2 years or buy a new electronic geegaw every time the old one gets fingerprints.

So it makes NO SENSE to say these emerging economies are 'greener' than us but that's EXACTLY what the article says.

The lax European diesel standards mean they can't sell their diesels here because they won't pass our standards, yet we are bad guys for not ratifying Kyoto? 'Sup with that?

We are nowhere near as bad as that article makes us out to be. No, we ain't perfect but we are trying and IMHO we have made a lot more progress than the Europeans or Asians. Like I said, it's just more typical US bashing based on nothing more than misplaced guilt.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
5/30/08 5:13 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: Like I said, it's just more typical US bashing based on nothing more than misplaced guilt.

UGH...

Keep waving that flag baby..

W000000!

no solutions proposed just accusations and excuses. Typical (I am sad to say) Modern Americans.....

Chris_V
Chris_V SuperDork
5/30/08 5:42 p.m.
ignorant wrote: Keep waving that flag baby.. W000000! no solutions proposed just accusations and excuses. Typical (I am sad to say) Modern Americans.....

And you proposed what workable solution other than to bash America? Hmm?

The point is, that the article ignores a lot of pollution and health problems in the developing nations and uses their lack of access to resources like A/C to say that are greener and thus "better" than we are, and you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
5/31/08 12:01 a.m.

I'm a'thinkin' Chris_V said it all. :nice:

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
5/31/08 11:16 a.m.

read 2008 election thread for my suggestions.. they are out there.

again you lose.

The other really funny thing is I'm out here doing something about all of this. I'm currently targeting my post MBA job search on firms that have great Green Tech opportunities.

Canada started a carbon exchange.. http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/headline_news/article.jsp?content=b0530108A

We're behind and I'm working to change it. So I have put my money and livelihood where my big fat liberal mouth is... It's gonna be a awesome ride.

http://www.amazon.com/Harvard-Business-Review-Environment-Paperback/dp/1578512336/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212251175&sr=8-1 <--- last book I read. Great articles in it, with opposing viewpoints.

So.. stop complaining all of you and start working....

GlennS
GlennS Reader
5/31/08 12:28 p.m.

who lost at what again?

MrJoshua
MrJoshua Dork
5/31/08 3:00 p.m.

We lost the thread prize for failing to recognize the validity of a survey geared towards proclaiming us the least environmentally conscious nation in the entire world. We also lost because we were apparently supposed to be motivated by this survey to propose ways we can become better than countries who "outrank" us despite openly grossly polluting in ways we havent for more than 30years.

Ignorant-if you want to discuss ways we can become more environmentally conscious im game, but arguing your side by linking to crap will always get you a crappy response.

Edit-the crap response is in reference to the first post and the referenced poll. I havent visited your other 2 links yet.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
5/31/08 3:27 p.m.

naa. I said you lose to chris V cause he said I didn't provide any solutions. Since economic, societal and enviromental problems are linked, I directed him to my posts in the election thread...

yeah the survey is weak.... I do believe we as Americans are very unaware of how damaging our way of life is.. Every European I meet believes in most of these enviromental issues and knows how they impact the world and knows how wasteful we are.. Granted those European's I meet are highly educated professionals so my frame issmall..

will we ever get rid of waste.. Nope..

Need to minimize it.

thats about it..

MrJoshua
MrJoshua Dork
5/31/08 4:16 p.m.

Gotcha.

aircooled
aircooled Dork
6/2/08 10:34 a.m.

Take a look at this example of India's recycling in action, see if you can figure out what is going on here:

India's recycling in action

Scroll up and down the coast. Go Green!

wcelliot
wcelliot New Reader
6/2/08 11:08 a.m.

Not many socialists out there with MBA's... guess your classes didn't include much business? ;-)

Nothing liberal about your positions... in fact your positions are diametrically opposed to classic liberalism.

Bill

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
6/2/08 11:21 a.m.
ignorant wrote: naa. I said you lose to chris V cause he said I didn't provide any solutions. Since economic, societal and enviromental problems are linked, I directed him to my posts in the election thread... yeah the survey is weak.... I do believe we as Americans are very unaware of how damaging our way of life is.. Every European I meet believes in most of these enviromental issues and knows how they impact the world and knows how wasteful we are.. Granted those European's I meet are highly educated professionals so my frame issmall.. will we ever get rid of waste.. Nope.. Need to minimize it. thats about it..

Ya know, I agree 100% that we need to cut back on pollution. Having said that, the US of A has made huge strides in cleaning up our nests where the developing world is fouling theirs. THAT's my main bitch with that so called survey.

And I believe a lot of those highly educated Europeans work for those companies that can't meet our emissions standards, right? ;-)

seann
seann New Reader
6/2/08 1:12 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: seann, I need to point something out: the reason all the polluting is going on in the 'emerging' economies is because Europeans (as well as us) demand cheap consumer goods. So they supply it and cut their costs by dumping crap on the ground. Meaning we export our pollution to those countries willing to cut corners so we and the Europeans can all have 40 cell phones in 2 years or buy a new electronic geegaw every time the old one gets fingerprints. So it makes NO SENSE to say these emerging economies are 'greener' than us but that's EXACTLY what the article says. The lax European diesel standards mean they can't sell their diesels here because they won't pass our standards, yet we are bad guys for not ratifying Kyoto? 'Sup with that? We are nowhere near as bad as that article makes us out to be. No, we ain't perfect but we are trying and IMHO we have made a lot more progress than the Europeans or Asians. Like I said, it's just more typical US bashing based on nothing more than misplaced guilt.

I don't think I was very clear because just about everything you've written here is consistent with what I'm trying to say. Sorry, some times I assume people can read my mind. Where we may differ is that I think a survey like this may not be all bad (if it was well conducted) because it does stimulate some personal reflection, but I think the discussion over who is worse is not very productive because people are just offloading their guilt.

I'm just thinking about this from a personal ethical standpoint though and not really taking into account policy or whatever else. I suppose who is pulling their own weight becomes important when competitive economic advantage comes into play.

Also, thanks for your comment, I think you helped clarify my post.

Sorry: I knew there was a more politically correct term than developing, it just escaped me.

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